[DISCUSS] Start a [e-mail] mailing list for the Chinese-speaking community?

[Kurt Young]

Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to find out why
apache mails are blocked by qq.com?
QQ mails are very popular in Chinese.

Best,
Kurt


On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Gordon,
>
> Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information!
> As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of people told me
> that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I think your
> information gives a good answer!
>
> - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of `user-zh-subscribe@`.
> The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to subscribe using
> `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize more about it
> not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`.
> Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the users if they
> send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing `user-zh-subscribe@`? This
> may
> also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list.
>
> - Network problem.
> This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now, I told one
> guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows everything becomes
> normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we can do is
> try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use Gmail in
> preference to qq.com, etc.
>
> BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this week. I want
> to let more people join in the survey.
>
> Best, Hequn
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as a moderator
> > of the user-zh@ mailing list:
> >
> > - About at least once every day, there would be someone trying to
> > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, and not
> > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can do in
> > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in subscribing to
> > the Apache mailing list.
> >
> > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email domains, for
> > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked. This would
> > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing list since
> they
> > can't complete the subscribe process.
> > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email conversations
> > from the mailing list either.
> >
> > Best,
> > Gordon
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people
> > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use mailing
> > list
> > > frequently.
> > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more on
> > > mailing lists?
> > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several times,
> when
> > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use user-zh ML.
> > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you help answer
> > the
> > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the question in
> > group
> > > again.
> > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is growing
> too
> > > fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number grows from 5,000 to
> > 10,000
> > > in the past months.
> > >
> > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.  We
> > can
> > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching itself.
> > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link:
> > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
> > >   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help.
> > >
> > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related information?
> > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu for most
> > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
> > >   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on this.
> > >
> > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a better
> > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users need.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Jark
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark for
> your
> > > nice
> > > > thoughts.
> > > >
> > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason is
> that
> > a
> > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a lot of
> > > people
> > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group. Even
> though,
> > > for
> > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in the
> > DingTalk
> > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group. For
> > these
> > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.
> > > >
> > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming ruined. In
> > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I think
> we
> > > can
> > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such as:
> > > >
> > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more convenient
> > and
> > > > fast.
> > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list.
> > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list.
> > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing list
> > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user mailing list
> > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
> > > > 7. other reasons.
> > > >
> > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here.
> > > >
> > > > Best, Hequn
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation team has
> > > done
> > > > a
> > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion is not
> > about
> > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high growth
> pain
> > > > IMHO.
> > > > >
> > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to
> use
> > > > > mailing list frequently.
> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more
> > on
> > > > > mailing lists?
> > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with lower
> > cost
> > > > than
> > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the case
> > too.
> > > > The
> > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down with it
> though.
> > > > When I
> > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were typically a
> > log
> > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many of them
> > > never
> > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may have
> > changed
> > > > > now, I'm sure.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow good
> > > > apache
> > > > > practices.
> > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and with
> Flink
> > > > China
> > > > > operation team".
> > > > >
> > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on user-zh's
> > low
> > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation team as
> > part
> > > > of
> > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on ideas and
> > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are all
> > > **devs**
> > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the main
> > > > question
> > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team** voted
> or
> > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them the
> > purpose
> > > of
> > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's something we
> can
> > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China operation
> > team
> > > > as
> > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to join
> > > related
> > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now on.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat group with
> > 10k
> > > > > > members!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the
> > Chinese-speaking
> > > > > world
> > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND
> follow
> > > > good
> > > > > > apache practices.
> > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user support via
> > > Chat
> > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people away
> > from
> > > > > that,
> > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink in
> > China.
> > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using mailing
> > lists,
> > > > or
> > > > > > will it hinder adoption?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> > > people
> > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list
> > > frequently.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case?
> > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
> > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which
> supports
> > > > > > searching
> > > > > > > itself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on
> Baidu.
> > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO,
> > Baidu
> > > is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
> > information?
> > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding help when
> > > they
> > > > > run
> > > > > > into problems with a system?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > Robert
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk.
> > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> > > > people
> > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list
> > > frequently.
> > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, although in
> > > hours.
> > > > > > >     - It means users can get problems solved by using mailing
> > list.
> > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> searching.
> > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which
> supports
> > > > > > searching
> > > > > > > itself.
> > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on
> > Baidu.
> > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO,
> > Baidu
> > > is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > Jark
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [1].
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most
> > questions
> > > > are
> > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000 people
> > now.
> > > > > > Here're
> > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and updates,
> > > > > broadcast
> > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer
> > > questions
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...) We
> > > probably
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really searchable,
> > topics
> > > > lost
> > > > > > > fast,
> > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening doing
> any
> > > > > > homework
> > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and
> haven't
> > > > > really
> > > > > > > look
> > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the group is
> > > also
> > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > down because of the problems.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists
> nowadays
> > > for
> > > > > its
> > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic focused,
> > > etc.
> > > > > And
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should
> happen
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what that
> > > DingTalk
> > > > > > group
> > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work together
> with
> > > our
> > > > > > > user-zh
> > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of just let
> > it
> > > > > drive
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on how we
> > > should
> > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should only be
> > used
> > > > for
> > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates,
> > broadcasting
> > > > live
> > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions should be
> > > > diverted
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk group so
> > > that
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > > can share their thoughts.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bowen
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> Hey all,
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a few months old and I
> > > wanted
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > hear
> > > > > > > >> how things are going.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 ?), I
> > > would
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also
> > > > understand
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last
> > century.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
> > > > > > > >> Feb: 72
> > > > > > > >> Mar: 170
> > > > > > > >> Apr: 119
> > > > > > > >> May: 62
> > > > > > > >> Jun: 10
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help adoption
> of
> > > that
> > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > >> list?
> > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing up
> on
> > > > Baidu
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it
> makes
> > > > sense
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > >> have
> > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Best,
> > > > > > > >> Robert
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > That's great.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Robert Metzger]

Thank you all for working on this!

+1 on conducting a survey!

@Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see a similar
example, also mentioning qq.com:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)



On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to find out why
> apache mails are blocked by qq.com?
> QQ mails are very popular in Chinese.
>
> Best,
> Kurt
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Gordon,
> >
> > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information!
> > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of people told me
> > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I think your
> > information gives a good answer!
> >
> > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of `user-zh-subscribe@`.
> > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to subscribe using
> > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize more about
> it
> > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`.
> > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the users if they
> > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing `user-zh-subscribe@`? This
> > may
> > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list.
> >
> > - Network problem.
> > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now, I told one
> > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows everything becomes
> > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we can do is
> > try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use Gmail in
> > preference to qq.com, etc.
> >
> > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this week. I
> want
> > to let more people join in the survey.
> >
> > Best, Hequn
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as a
> moderator
> > > of the user-zh@ mailing list:
> > >
> > > - About at least once every day, there would be someone trying to
> > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, and not
> > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can do in
> > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in subscribing
> to
> > > the Apache mailing list.
> > >
> > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email domains,
> for
> > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked. This
> would
> > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing list since
> > they
> > > can't complete the subscribe process.
> > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email
> conversations
> > > from the mailing list either.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Gordon
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> people
> > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use mailing
> > > list
> > > > frequently.
> > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more
> on
> > > > mailing lists?
> > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several times,
> > when
> > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use user-zh ML.
> > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you help
> answer
> > > the
> > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the question in
> > > group
> > > > again.
> > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is growing
> > too
> > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number grows from 5,000 to
> > > 10,000
> > > > in the past months.
> > > >
> > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
> We
> > > can
> > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching itself.
> > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link:
> > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
> > > >   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help.
> > > >
> > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
> information?
> > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu for most
> > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
> > > >   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on this.
> > > >
> > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a better
> > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users need.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Jark
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark for
> > your
> > > > nice
> > > > > thoughts.
> > > > >
> > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason is
> > that
> > > a
> > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a lot of
> > > > people
> > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group. Even
> > though,
> > > > for
> > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in the
> > > DingTalk
> > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group. For
> > > these
> > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.
> > > > >
> > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming ruined. In
> > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I
> think
> > we
> > > > can
> > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such as:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more
> convenient
> > > and
> > > > > fast.
> > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list.
> > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list.
> > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing list
> > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user mailing
> list
> > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
> > > > > 7. other reasons.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best, Hequn
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation team
> has
> > > > done
> > > > > a
> > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion is not
> > > about
> > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high growth
> > pain
> > > > > IMHO.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to
> > use
> > > > > > mailing list frequently.
> > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people
> more
> > > on
> > > > > > mailing lists?
> > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with lower
> > > cost
> > > > > than
> > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the case
> > > too.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down with it
> > though.
> > > > > When I
> > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were
> typically a
> > > log
> > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many of
> them
> > > > never
> > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may have
> > > changed
> > > > > > now, I'm sure.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow
> good
> > > > > apache
> > > > > > practices.
> > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and with
> > Flink
> > > > > China
> > > > > > operation team".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on
> user-zh's
> > > low
> > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation team
> as
> > > part
> > > > > of
> > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on ideas
> and
> > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are all
> > > > **devs**
> > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the main
> > > > > question
> > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team**
> voted
> > or
> > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them the
> > > purpose
> > > > of
> > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's something we
> > can
> > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China
> operation
> > > team
> > > > > as
> > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to join
> > > > related
> > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now on.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat group
> with
> > > 10k
> > > > > > > members!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the
> > > Chinese-speaking
> > > > > > world
> > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND
> > follow
> > > > > good
> > > > > > > apache practices.
> > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user support
> via
> > > > Chat
> > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people away
> > > from
> > > > > > that,
> > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink in
> > > China.
> > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using mailing
> > > lists,
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > will it hinder adoption?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> > > > people
> > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list
> > > > frequently.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case?
> > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> searching.
> > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which
> > supports
> > > > > > > searching
> > > > > > > > itself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on
> > Baidu.
> > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO,
> > > Baidu
> > > > is
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
> > > information?
> > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding help
> when
> > > > they
> > > > > > run
> > > > > > > into problems with a system?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > Robert
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk.
> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions,
> but
> > > > > people
> > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list
> > > > frequently.
> > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, although
> in
> > > > hours.
> > > > > > > >     - It means users can get problems solved by using mailing
> > > list.
> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> > searching.
> > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which
> > supports
> > > > > > > searching
> > > > > > > > itself.
> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on
> > > Baidu.
> > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO,
> > > Baidu
> > > > is
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > Jark
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [1].
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <[hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most
> > > questions
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000
> people
> > > now.
> > > > > > > Here're
> > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and
> updates,
> > > > > > broadcast
> > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer
> > > > questions
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...) We
> > > > probably
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really searchable,
> > > topics
> > > > > lost
> > > > > > > > fast,
> > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening doing
> > any
> > > > > > > homework
> > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and
> > haven't
> > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > look
> > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the group
> is
> > > > also
> > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > down because of the problems.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists
> > nowadays
> > > > for
> > > > > > its
> > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic
> focused,
> > > > etc.
> > > > > > And
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should
> > happen
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what that
> > > > DingTalk
> > > > > > > group
> > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work together
> > with
> > > > our
> > > > > > > > user-zh
> > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of just
> let
> > > it
> > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on how
> we
> > > > should
> > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should only be
> > > used
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates,
> > > broadcasting
> > > > > live
> > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions should
> be
> > > > > diverted
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk group
> so
> > > > that
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bowen
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <
> > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> Hey all,
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a few months old and
> I
> > > > wanted
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > hear
> > > > > > > > >> how things are going.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 ?),
> I
> > > > would
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also
> > > > > understand
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last
> > > century.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
> > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72
> > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170
> > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119
> > > > > > > > >> May: 62
> > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help adoption
> > of
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > >> list?
> > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing up
> > on
> > > > > Baidu
> > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it
> > makes
> > > > > sense
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > >> have
> > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Best,
> > > > > > > > >> Robert
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <
> > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> > That's great.
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Kurt Young]

Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and see what will
happen.

Best,
Kurt


On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thank you all for working on this!
>
> +1 on conducting a survey!
>
> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see a similar
> example, also mentioning qq.com:
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to find out why
> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com?
> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese.
> >
> > Best,
> > Kurt
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Gordon,
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information!
> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of people told
> me
> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I think
> your
> > > information gives a good answer!
> > >
> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of `user-zh-subscribe@`.
> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to subscribe using
> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize more
> about
> > it
> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`.
> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the users if
> they
> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing `user-zh-subscribe@`?
> This
> > > may
> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list.
> > >
> > > - Network problem.
> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now, I told
> one
> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows everything
> becomes
> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we can do
> is
> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use Gmail in
> > > preference to qq.com, etc.
> > >
> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this week. I
> > want
> > > to let more people join in the survey.
> > >
> > > Best, Hequn
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as a
> > moderator
> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list:
> > > >
> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be someone trying to
> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, and not
> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can do in
> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in subscribing
> > to
> > > > the Apache mailing list.
> > > >
> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email domains,
> > for
> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked. This
> > would
> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing list since
> > > they
> > > > can't complete the subscribe process.
> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email
> > conversations
> > > > from the mailing list either.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Gordon
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> > people
> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use
> mailing
> > > > list
> > > > > frequently.
> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more
> > on
> > > > > mailing lists?
> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several
> times,
> > > when
> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use user-zh
> ML.
> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you help
> > answer
> > > > the
> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the question
> in
> > > > group
> > > > > again.
> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is
> growing
> > > too
> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number grows from 5,000 to
> > > > 10,000
> > > > > in the past months.
> > > > >
> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
> > We
> > > > can
> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching
> itself.
> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link:
> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
> > > > >   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help.
> > > > >
> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
> > information?
> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu for
> most
> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
> > > > >   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on
> this.
> > > > >
> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a
> better
> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users need.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Jark
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark for
> > > your
> > > > > nice
> > > > > > thoughts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason is
> > > that
> > > > a
> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a lot
> of
> > > > > people
> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group. Even
> > > though,
> > > > > for
> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in the
> > > > DingTalk
> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group.
> For
> > > > these
> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming ruined.
> In
> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I
> > think
> > > we
> > > > > can
> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such
> as:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more
> > convenient
> > > > and
> > > > > > fast.
> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list.
> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list.
> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing list
> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user mailing
> > list
> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
> > > > > > 7. other reasons.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best, Hequn
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation team
> > has
> > > > > done
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion is
> not
> > > > about
> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high
> growth
> > > pain
> > > > > > IMHO.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions,
> but
> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users
> to
> > > use
> > > > > > > mailing list frequently.
> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people
> > more
> > > > on
> > > > > > > mailing lists?
> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with
> lower
> > > > cost
> > > > > > than
> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the
> case
> > > > too.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down with it
> > > though.
> > > > > > When I
> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were
> > typically a
> > > > log
> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many of
> > them
> > > > > never
> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may have
> > > > changed
> > > > > > > now, I'm sure.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow
> > good
> > > > > > apache
> > > > > > > practices.
> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and with
> > > Flink
> > > > > > China
> > > > > > > operation team".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on
> > user-zh's
> > > > low
> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation team
> > as
> > > > part
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on ideas
> > and
> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are
> all
> > > > > **devs**
> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the
> main
> > > > > > question
> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team**
> > voted
> > > or
> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them the
> > > > purpose
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's something
> we
> > > can
> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China
> > operation
> > > > team
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to
> join
> > > > > related
> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now on.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat group
> > with
> > > > 10k
> > > > > > > > members!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the
> > > > Chinese-speaking
> > > > > > > world
> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND
> > > follow
> > > > > > good
> > > > > > > > apache practices.
> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user support
> > via
> > > > > Chat
> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people
> away
> > > > from
> > > > > > > that,
> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink in
> > > > China.
> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using
> mailing
> > > > lists,
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions,
> but
> > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list
> > > > > frequently.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case?
> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> > searching.
> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which
> > > supports
> > > > > > > > searching
> > > > > > > > > itself.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on
> > > Baidu.
> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this.
> IMO,
> > > > Baidu
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
> > > > information?
> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding help
> > when
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > run
> > > > > > > > into problems with a system?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > Robert
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk.
> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions,
> > but
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list
> > > > > frequently.
> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, although
> > in
> > > > > hours.
> > > > > > > > >     - It means users can get problems solved by using
> mailing
> > > > list.
> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> > > searching.
> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which
> > > supports
> > > > > > > > searching
> > > > > > > > > itself.
> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on
> > > > Baidu.
> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this.
> IMO,
> > > > Baidu
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > Jark
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > [1].
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most
> > > > questions
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000
> > people
> > > > now.
> > > > > > > > Here're
> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and
> > updates,
> > > > > > > broadcast
> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer
> > > > > questions
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...)
> We
> > > > > probably
> > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really searchable,
> > > > topics
> > > > > > lost
> > > > > > > > > fast,
> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening
> doing
> > > any
> > > > > > > > homework
> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and
> > > haven't
> > > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > look
> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the
> group
> > is
> > > > > also
> > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists
> > > nowadays
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > its
> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic
> > focused,
> > > > > etc.
> > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should
> > > happen
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what
> that
> > > > > DingTalk
> > > > > > > > group
> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work
> together
> > > with
> > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > user-zh
> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of just
> > let
> > > > it
> > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on how
> > we
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should only
> be
> > > > used
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates,
> > > > broadcasting
> > > > > > live
> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions should
> > be
> > > > > > diverted
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk
> group
> > so
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bowen
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <
> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all,
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a few months old
> and
> > I
> > > > > wanted
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > hear
> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000
> ?),
> > I
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also
> > > > > > understand
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last
> > > > century.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72
> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170
> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119
> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62
> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help
> adoption
> > > of
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > >> list?
> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing
> up
> > > on
> > > > > > Baidu
> > > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it
> > > makes
> > > > > > sense
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > >> have
> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Best,
> > > > > > > > > >> Robert
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <
> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Kurt Young]

From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit us, and all our
efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend people use other
providers."

I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails when using apache
mailing list.

Best,
Kurt


On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and see what will
> happen.
>
> Best,
> Kurt
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you all for working on this!
>>
>> +1 on conducting a survey!
>>
>> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see a similar
>> example, also mentioning qq.com:
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to find out
>> why
>> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com?
>> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Kurt
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi Gordon,
>> > >
>> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information!
>> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of people
>> told me
>> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I think
>> your
>> > > information gives a good answer!
>> > >
>> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of `user-zh-subscribe@`.
>> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to subscribe using
>> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize more
>> about
>> > it
>> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`.
>> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the users if
>> they
>> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing `user-zh-subscribe@`?
>> This
>> > > may
>> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list.
>> > >
>> > > - Network problem.
>> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now, I told
>> one
>> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows everything
>> becomes
>> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we can do
>> is
>> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use Gmail
>> in
>> > > preference to qq.com, etc.
>> > >
>> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this week. I
>> > want
>> > > to let more people join in the survey.
>> > >
>> > > Best, Hequn
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <
>> > [hidden email]>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Hi all,
>> > > >
>> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as a
>> > moderator
>> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list:
>> > > >
>> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be someone trying to
>> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, and not
>> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can do in
>> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in
>> subscribing
>> > to
>> > > > the Apache mailing list.
>> > > >
>> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email
>> domains,
>> > for
>> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked. This
>> > would
>> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing list
>> since
>> > > they
>> > > > can't complete the subscribe process.
>> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email
>> > conversations
>> > > > from the mailing list either.
>> > > >
>> > > > Best,
>> > > > Gordon
>> > > >
>> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
>> > people
>> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use
>> mailing
>> > > > list
>> > > > > frequently.
>> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people
>> more
>> > on
>> > > > > mailing lists?
>> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several
>> times,
>> > > when
>> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use user-zh
>> ML.
>> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you help
>> > answer
>> > > > the
>> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the
>> question in
>> > > > group
>> > > > > again.
>> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is
>> growing
>> > > too
>> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number grows from 5,000
>> to
>> > > > 10,000
>> > > > > in the past months.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
>> searching.
>> > We
>> > > > can
>> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching
>> itself.
>> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
>> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link:
>> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
>> > > > >   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
>> > information?
>> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu for
>> most
>> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
>> > > > >   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on
>> this.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a
>> better
>> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users need.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Best,
>> > > > > Jark
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > Hi,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark
>> for
>> > > your
>> > > > > nice
>> > > > > > thoughts.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason
>> is
>> > > that
>> > > > a
>> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a
>> lot of
>> > > > > people
>> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group. Even
>> > > though,
>> > > > > for
>> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in the
>> > > > DingTalk
>> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group.
>> For
>> > > > these
>> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming
>> ruined. In
>> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I
>> > think
>> > > we
>> > > > > can
>> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such
>> as:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more
>> > convenient
>> > > > and
>> > > > > > fast.
>> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list.
>> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list.
>> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing list
>> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user mailing
>> > list
>> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
>> > > > > > 7. other reasons.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Best, Hequn
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <[hidden email]>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation
>> team
>> > has
>> > > > > done
>> > > > > > a
>> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion is
>> not
>> > > > about
>> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high
>> growth
>> > > pain
>> > > > > > IMHO.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions,
>> but
>> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users
>> to
>> > > use
>> > > > > > > mailing list frequently.
>> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people
>> > more
>> > > > on
>> > > > > > > mailing lists?
>> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with
>> lower
>> > > > cost
>> > > > > > than
>> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the
>> case
>> > > > too.
>> > > > > > The
>> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down with it
>> > > though.
>> > > > > > When I
>> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were
>> > typically a
>> > > > log
>> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many of
>> > them
>> > > > > never
>> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may
>> have
>> > > > changed
>> > > > > > > now, I'm sure.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow
>> > good
>> > > > > > apache
>> > > > > > > practices.
>> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and with
>> > > Flink
>> > > > > > China
>> > > > > > > operation team".
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on
>> > user-zh's
>> > > > low
>> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation
>> team
>> > as
>> > > > part
>> > > > > > of
>> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on
>> ideas
>> > and
>> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are
>> all
>> > > > > **devs**
>> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the
>> main
>> > > > > > question
>> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team**
>> > voted
>> > > or
>> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them the
>> > > > purpose
>> > > > > of
>> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's something
>> we
>> > > can
>> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China
>> > operation
>> > > > team
>> > > > > > as
>> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to
>> join
>> > > > > related
>> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now on.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <
>> > > [hidden email]>
>> > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat group
>> > with
>> > > > 10k
>> > > > > > > > members!
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the
>> > > > Chinese-speaking
>> > > > > > > world
>> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND
>> > > follow
>> > > > > > good
>> > > > > > > > apache practices.
>> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user
>> support
>> > via
>> > > > > Chat
>> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people
>> away
>> > > > from
>> > > > > > > that,
>> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink
>> in
>> > > > China.
>> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using
>> mailing
>> > > > lists,
>> > > > > > or
>> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions,
>> but
>> > > > > people
>> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
>> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list
>> > > > > frequently.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case?
>> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
>> > searching.
>> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which
>> > > supports
>> > > > > > > > searching
>> > > > > > > > > itself.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on
>> > > Baidu.
>> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this.
>> IMO,
>> > > > Baidu
>> > > > > is
>> > > > > > > not
>> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
>> > > > information?
>> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding help
>> > when
>> > > > > they
>> > > > > > > run
>> > > > > > > > into problems with a system?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Best,
>> > > > > > > > Robert
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk.
>> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
>> questions,
>> > but
>> > > > > > people
>> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
>> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list
>> > > > > frequently.
>> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies,
>> although
>> > in
>> > > > > hours.
>> > > > > > > > >     - It means users can get problems solved by using
>> mailing
>> > > > list.
>> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
>> > > searching.
>> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which
>> > > supports
>> > > > > > > > searching
>> > > > > > > > > itself.
>> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up
>> on
>> > > > Baidu.
>> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this.
>> IMO,
>> > > > Baidu
>> > > > > is
>> > > > > > > not
>> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Regards,
>> > > > > > > > > Jark
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > [1].
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <
>> [hidden email]>
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most
>> > > > questions
>> > > > > > are
>> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000
>> > people
>> > > > now.
>> > > > > > > > Here're
>> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and
>> > updates,
>> > > > > > > broadcast
>> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer
>> > > > > questions
>> > > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...)
>> We
>> > > > > probably
>> > > > > > > all
>> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really
>> searchable,
>> > > > topics
>> > > > > > lost
>> > > > > > > > > fast,
>> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening
>> doing
>> > > any
>> > > > > > > > homework
>> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and
>> > > haven't
>> > > > > > > really
>> > > > > > > > > look
>> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the
>> group
>> > is
>> > > > > also
>> > > > > > > > going
>> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems.
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists
>> > > nowadays
>> > > > > for
>> > > > > > > its
>> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic
>> > focused,
>> > > > > etc.
>> > > > > > > And
>> > > > > > > > I
>> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should
>> > > happen
>> > > > in
>> > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what
>> that
>> > > > > DingTalk
>> > > > > > > > group
>> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work
>> together
>> > > with
>> > > > > our
>> > > > > > > > > user-zh
>> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of
>> just
>> > let
>> > > > it
>> > > > > > > drive
>> > > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on
>> how
>> > we
>> > > > > should
>> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should
>> only be
>> > > > used
>> > > > > > for
>> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates,
>> > > > broadcasting
>> > > > > > live
>> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions
>> should
>> > be
>> > > > > > diverted
>> > > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk
>> group
>> > so
>> > > > > that
>> > > > > > > they
>> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts.
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > Bowen
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <
>> > > > > > [hidden email]>
>> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all,
>> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a few months old
>> and
>> > I
>> > > > > wanted
>> > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > > hear
>> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going.
>> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000
>> ?),
>> > I
>> > > > > would
>> > > > > > > have
>> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I
>> also
>> > > > > > understand
>> > > > > > > > that
>> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last
>> > > > century.
>> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
>> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72
>> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170
>> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119
>> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62
>> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10
>> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help
>> adoption
>> > > of
>> > > > > that
>> > > > > > > > > mailing
>> > > > > > > > > >> list?
>> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list
>> showing up
>> > > on
>> > > > > > Baidu
>> > > > > > > > when
>> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it
>> > > makes
>> > > > > > sense
>> > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > > >> have
>> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?
>> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > >> Best,
>> > > > > > > > > >> Robert
>> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <
>> > > > > > [hidden email]>
>> > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great.
>> > > > > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>

[Robert Metzger]

Thanks a lot!

qq.com belongs to Tencent, right?
As far as I know, we have some active contributors working at Tencent (Vino
Yang). Maybe he or other employees from Tencent following this mailing
list, could help to make a connection to the QQ teams to resolve that
problem?



On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:43 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit us, and all our
> efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend people use other
> providers."
>
> I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails when using
> apache
> mailing list.
>
> Best,
> Kurt
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and see what will
> > happen.
> >
> > Best,
> > Kurt
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you all for working on this!
> >>
> >> +1 on conducting a survey!
> >>
> >> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see a similar
> >> example, also mentioning qq.com:
> >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to find out
> >> why
> >> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com?
> >> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese.
> >> >
> >> > Best,
> >> > Kurt
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hi Gordon,
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information!
> >> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of people
> >> told me
> >> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I think
> >> your
> >> > > information gives a good answer!
> >> > >
> >> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of `user-zh-subscribe@
> `.
> >> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to subscribe
> using
> >> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize more
> >> about
> >> > it
> >> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`.
> >> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the users if
> >> they
> >> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing `user-zh-subscribe@`?
> >> This
> >> > > may
> >> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list.
> >> > >
> >> > > - Network problem.
> >> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now, I told
> >> one
> >> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows everything
> >> becomes
> >> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we can
> do
> >> is
> >> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use Gmail
> >> in
> >> > > preference to qq.com, etc.
> >> > >
> >> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this week.
> I
> >> > want
> >> > > to let more people join in the survey.
> >> > >
> >> > > Best, Hequn
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <
> >> > [hidden email]>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Hi all,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as a
> >> > moderator
> >> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be someone trying to
> >> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, and
> not
> >> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can do in
> >> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in
> >> subscribing
> >> > to
> >> > > > the Apache mailing list.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email
> >> domains,
> >> > for
> >> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked. This
> >> > would
> >> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing list
> >> since
> >> > > they
> >> > > > can't complete the subscribe process.
> >> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email
> >> > conversations
> >> > > > from the mailing list either.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Best,
> >> > > > Gordon
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> >> > people
> >> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use
> >> mailing
> >> > > > list
> >> > > > > frequently.
> >> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people
> >> more
> >> > on
> >> > > > > mailing lists?
> >> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several
> >> times,
> >> > > when
> >> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use user-zh
> >> ML.
> >> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you help
> >> > answer
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the
> >> question in
> >> > > > group
> >> > > > > again.
> >> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is
> >> growing
> >> > > too
> >> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number grows from 5,000
> >> to
> >> > > > 10,000
> >> > > > > in the past months.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> >> searching.
> >> > We
> >> > > > can
> >> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching
> >> itself.
> >> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> >> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link:
> >> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
> >> > > > >   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
> >> > information?
> >> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu for
> >> most
> >> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
> >> > > > >   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on
> >> this.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a
> >> better
> >> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users need.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Best,
> >> > > > > Jark
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]
> >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > Hi,
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark
> >> for
> >> > > your
> >> > > > > nice
> >> > > > > > thoughts.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason
> >> is
> >> > > that
> >> > > > a
> >> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a
> >> lot of
> >> > > > > people
> >> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group.
> Even
> >> > > though,
> >> > > > > for
> >> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in
> the
> >> > > > DingTalk
> >> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group.
> >> For
> >> > > > these
> >> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming
> >> ruined. In
> >> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I
> >> > think
> >> > > we
> >> > > > > can
> >> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such
> >> as:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more
> >> > convenient
> >> > > > and
> >> > > > > > fast.
> >> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list.
> >> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list.
> >> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing
> list
> >> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user
> mailing
> >> > list
> >> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
> >> > > > > > 7. other reasons.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Best, Hequn
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <
> [hidden email]>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation
> >> team
> >> > has
> >> > > > > done
> >> > > > > > a
> >> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion
> is
> >> not
> >> > > > about
> >> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high
> >> growth
> >> > > pain
> >> > > > > > IMHO.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions,
> >> but
> >> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind
> users
> >> to
> >> > > use
> >> > > > > > > mailing list frequently.
> >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate
> people
> >> > more
> >> > > > on
> >> > > > > > > mailing lists?
> >> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with
> >> lower
> >> > > > cost
> >> > > > > > than
> >> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the
> >> case
> >> > > > too.
> >> > > > > > The
> >> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down with it
> >> > > though.
> >> > > > > > When I
> >> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were
> >> > typically a
> >> > > > log
> >> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many
> of
> >> > them
> >> > > > > never
> >> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may
> >> have
> >> > > > changed
> >> > > > > > > now, I'm sure.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND
> follow
> >> > good
> >> > > > > > apache
> >> > > > > > > practices.
> >> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and
> with
> >> > > Flink
> >> > > > > > China
> >> > > > > > > operation team".
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on
> >> > user-zh's
> >> > > > low
> >> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation
> >> team
> >> > as
> >> > > > part
> >> > > > > > of
> >> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on
> >> ideas
> >> > and
> >> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are
> >> all
> >> > > > > **devs**
> >> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the
> >> main
> >> > > > > > question
> >> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team**
> >> > voted
> >> > > or
> >> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them
> the
> >> > > > purpose
> >> > > > > of
> >> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's
> something
> >> we
> >> > > can
> >> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China
> >> > operation
> >> > > > team
> >> > > > > > as
> >> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to
> >> join
> >> > > > > related
> >> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now
> on.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <
> >> > > [hidden email]>
> >> > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat
> group
> >> > with
> >> > > > 10k
> >> > > > > > > > members!
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the
> >> > > > Chinese-speaking
> >> > > > > > > world
> >> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow
> AND
> >> > > follow
> >> > > > > > good
> >> > > > > > > > apache practices.
> >> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user
> >> support
> >> > via
> >> > > > > Chat
> >> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people
> >> away
> >> > > > from
> >> > > > > > > that,
> >> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink
> >> in
> >> > > > China.
> >> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using
> >> mailing
> >> > > > lists,
> >> > > > > > or
> >> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> questions,
> >> but
> >> > > > > people
> >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing
> list
> >> > > > > frequently.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case?
> >> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> >> > searching.
> >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which
> >> > > supports
> >> > > > > > > > searching
> >> > > > > > > > > itself.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up
> on
> >> > > Baidu.
> >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this.
> >> IMO,
> >> > > > Baidu
> >> > > > > is
> >> > > > > > > not
> >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
> >> > > > information?
> >> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding
> help
> >> > when
> >> > > > > they
> >> > > > > > > run
> >> > > > > > > > into problems with a system?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Best,
> >> > > > > > > > Robert
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]
> >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the
> DingTalk.
> >> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> >> questions,
> >> > but
> >> > > > > > people
> >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing
> list
> >> > > > > frequently.
> >> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies,
> >> although
> >> > in
> >> > > > > hours.
> >> > > > > > > > >     - It means users can get problems solved by using
> >> mailing
> >> > > > list.
> >> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> >> > > searching.
> >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which
> >> > > supports
> >> > > > > > > > searching
> >> > > > > > > > > itself.
> >> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up
> >> on
> >> > > > Baidu.
> >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this.
> >> IMO,
> >> > > > Baidu
> >> > > > > is
> >> > > > > > > not
> >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Regards,
> >> > > > > > > > > Jark
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > [1].
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <
> >> [hidden email]>
> >> > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because
> most
> >> > > > questions
> >> > > > > > are
> >> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000
> >> > people
> >> > > > now.
> >> > > > > > > > Here're
> >> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and
> >> > updates,
> >> > > > > > > broadcast
> >> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for
> ask-answer
> >> > > > > questions
> >> > > > > > > and
> >> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not
> 10,000...)
> >> We
> >> > > > > probably
> >> > > > > > > all
> >> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really
> >> searchable,
> >> > > > topics
> >> > > > > > lost
> >> > > > > > > > > fast,
> >> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening
> >> doing
> >> > > any
> >> > > > > > > > homework
> >> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat
> and
> >> > > haven't
> >> > > > > > > really
> >> > > > > > > > > look
> >> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the
> >> group
> >> > is
> >> > > > > also
> >> > > > > > > > going
> >> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists
> >> > > nowadays
> >> > > > > for
> >> > > > > > > its
> >> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic
> >> > focused,
> >> > > > > etc.
> >> > > > > > > And
> >> > > > > > > > I
> >> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer
> should
> >> > > happen
> >> > > > in
> >> > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what
> >> that
> >> > > > > DingTalk
> >> > > > > > > > group
> >> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work
> >> together
> >> > > with
> >> > > > > our
> >> > > > > > > > > user-zh
> >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of
> >> just
> >> > let
> >> > > > it
> >> > > > > > > drive
> >> > > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on
> >> how
> >> > we
> >> > > > > should
> >> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should
> >> only be
> >> > > > used
> >> > > > > > for
> >> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates,
> >> > > > broadcasting
> >> > > > > > live
> >> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions
> >> should
> >> > be
> >> > > > > > diverted
> >> > > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk
> >> group
> >> > so
> >> > > > > that
> >> > > > > > > they
> >> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > Bowen
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <
> >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> >> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all,
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a few months old
> >> and
> >> > I
> >> > > > > wanted
> >> > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > hear
> >> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going.
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000
> >> ?),
> >> > I
> >> > > > > would
> >> > > > > > > have
> >> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I
> >> also
> >> > > > > > understand
> >> > > > > > > > that
> >> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the
> last
> >> > > > century.
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119
> >> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help
> >> adoption
> >> > > of
> >> > > > > that
> >> > > > > > > > > mailing
> >> > > > > > > > > >> list?
> >> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list
> >> showing up
> >> > > on
> >> > > > > > Baidu
> >> > > > > > > > when
> >> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does
> it
> >> > > makes
> >> > > > > > sense
> >> > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > >> have
> >> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Best,
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Robert
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <
> >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great.
> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
>

[vino yang]

Hi Robert,

Yes,  QQ mail product belongs to Tencent and I work at Tencent.

I am contacting QQ mail team and trying to know the reason. Once I get the
reply and explanation. I will sync here.

Best,
Vino.

Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月20日周四 下午10:59写道：

> Thanks a lot!
>
> qq.com belongs to Tencent, right?
> As far as I know, we have some active contributors working at Tencent (Vino
> Yang). Maybe he or other employees from Tencent following this mailing
> list, could help to make a connection to the QQ teams to resolve that
> problem?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:43 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit us, and all our
> > efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend people use
> other
> > providers."
> >
> > I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails when using
> > apache
> > mailing list.
> >
> > Best,
> > Kurt
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and see what will
> > > happen.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Kurt
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Thank you all for working on this!
> > >>
> > >> +1 on conducting a survey!
> > >>
> > >> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see a similar
> > >> example, also mentioning qq.com:
> > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to find
> out
> > >> why
> > >> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com?
> > >> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese.
> > >> >
> > >> > Best,
> > >> > Kurt
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Hi Gordon,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information!
> > >> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of people
> > >> told me
> > >> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I
> think
> > >> your
> > >> > > information gives a good answer!
> > >> > >
> > >> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of
> `user-zh-subscribe@
> > `.
> > >> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to subscribe
> > using
> > >> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize more
> > >> about
> > >> > it
> > >> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`.
> > >> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the users
> if
> > >> they
> > >> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing `user-zh-subscribe@
> `?
> > >> This
> > >> > > may
> > >> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > - Network problem.
> > >> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now, I
> told
> > >> one
> > >> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows everything
> > >> becomes
> > >> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we can
> > do
> > >> is
> > >> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use
> Gmail
> > >> in
> > >> > > preference to qq.com, etc.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this
> week.
> > I
> > >> > want
> > >> > > to let more people join in the survey.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Best, Hequn
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <
> > >> > [hidden email]>
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Hi all,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as a
> > >> > moderator
> > >> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be someone trying
> to
> > >> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, and
> > not
> > >> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can do
> in
> > >> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in
> > >> subscribing
> > >> > to
> > >> > > > the Apache mailing list.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email
> > >> domains,
> > >> > for
> > >> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked.
> This
> > >> > would
> > >> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing list
> > >> since
> > >> > > they
> > >> > > > can't complete the subscribe process.
> > >> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email
> > >> > conversations
> > >> > > > from the mailing list either.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Best,
> > >> > > > Gordon
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions,
> but
> > >> > people
> > >> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use
> > >> mailing
> > >> > > > list
> > >> > > > > frequently.
> > >> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people
> > >> more
> > >> > on
> > >> > > > > mailing lists?
> > >> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several
> > >> times,
> > >> > > when
> > >> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use
> user-zh
> > >> ML.
> > >> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you
> help
> > >> > answer
> > >> > > > the
> > >> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the
> > >> question in
> > >> > > > group
> > >> > > > > again.
> > >> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is
> > >> growing
> > >> > > too
> > >> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number grows from
> 5,000
> > >> to
> > >> > > > 10,000
> > >> > > > > in the past months.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> > >> searching.
> > >> > We
> > >> > > > can
> > >> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching
> > >> itself.
> > >> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > >> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link:
> > >> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
> > >> > > > >   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
> > >> > information?
> > >> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu
> for
> > >> most
> > >> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
> > >> > > > >   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on
> > >> this.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a
> > >> better
> > >> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users
> need.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > Best,
> > >> > > > > Jark
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Hi,
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and
> Jark
> > >> for
> > >> > > your
> > >> > > > > nice
> > >> > > > > > thoughts.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the
> reason
> > >> is
> > >> > > that
> > >> > > > a
> > >> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a
> > >> lot of
> > >> > > > > people
> > >> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group.
> > Even
> > >> > > though,
> > >> > > > > for
> > >> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in
> > the
> > >> > > > DingTalk
> > >> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the
> group.
> > >> For
> > >> > > > these
> > >> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming
> > >> ruined. In
> > >> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and
> Jark, I
> > >> > think
> > >> > > we
> > >> > > > > can
> > >> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users,
> such
> > >> as:
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more
> > >> > convenient
> > >> > > > and
> > >> > > > > > fast.
> > >> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list.
> > >> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list.
> > >> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing
> > list
> > >> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user
> > mailing
> > >> > list
> > >> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
> > >> > > > > > 7. other reasons.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Best, Hequn
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <
> > [hidden email]>
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation
> > >> team
> > >> > has
> > >> > > > > done
> > >> > > > > > a
> > >> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion
> > is
> > >> not
> > >> > > > about
> > >> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high
> > >> growth
> > >> > > pain
> > >> > > > > > IMHO.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> questions,
> > >> but
> > >> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind
> > users
> > >> to
> > >> > > use
> > >> > > > > > > mailing list frequently.
> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate
> > people
> > >> > more
> > >> > > > on
> > >> > > > > > > mailing lists?
> > >> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast
> with
> > >> lower
> > >> > > > cost
> > >> > > > > > than
> > >> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be
> the
> > >> case
> > >> > > > too.
> > >> > > > > > The
> > >> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down with
> it
> > >> > > though.
> > >> > > > > > When I
> > >> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were
> > >> > typically a
> > >> > > > log
> > >> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?".
> Many
> > of
> > >> > them
> > >> > > > > never
> > >> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may
> > >> have
> > >> > > > changed
> > >> > > > > > > now, I'm sure.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND
> > follow
> > >> > good
> > >> > > > > > apache
> > >> > > > > > > practices.
> > >> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and
> > with
> > >> > > Flink
> > >> > > > > > China
> > >> > > > > > > operation team".
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on
> > >> > user-zh's
> > >> > > > low
> > >> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation
> > >> team
> > >> > as
> > >> > > > part
> > >> > > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on
> > >> ideas
> > >> > and
> > >> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1
> are
> > >> all
> > >> > > > > **devs**
> > >> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be
> the
> > >> main
> > >> > > > > > question
> > >> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation
> team**
> > >> > voted
> > >> > > or
> > >> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them
> > the
> > >> > > > purpose
> > >> > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's
> > something
> > >> we
> > >> > > can
> > >> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China
> > >> > operation
> > >> > > > team
> > >> > > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them
> to
> > >> join
> > >> > > > > related
> > >> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now
> > on.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <
> > >> > > [hidden email]>
> > >> > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat
> > group
> > >> > with
> > >> > > > 10k
> > >> > > > > > > > members!
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the
> > >> > > > Chinese-speaking
> > >> > > > > > > world
> > >> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow
> > AND
> > >> > > follow
> > >> > > > > > good
> > >> > > > > > > > apache practices.
> > >> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user
> > >> support
> > >> > via
> > >> > > > > Chat
> > >> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move
> people
> > >> away
> > >> > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > that,
> > >> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of
> Flink
> > >> in
> > >> > > > China.
> > >> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using
> > >> mailing
> > >> > > > lists,
> > >> > > > > > or
> > >> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption?
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> > questions,
> > >> but
> > >> > > > > people
> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing
> > list
> > >> > > > > frequently.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case?
> > >> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists?
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> > >> > searching.
> > >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh
> which
> > >> > > supports
> > >> > > > > > > > searching
> > >> > > > > > > > > itself.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up
> > on
> > >> > > Baidu.
> > >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve
> this.
> > >> IMO,
> > >> > > > Baidu
> > >> > > > > is
> > >> > > > > > > not
> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
> > >> > > > information?
> > >> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding
> > help
> > >> > when
> > >> > > > > they
> > >> > > > > > > run
> > >> > > > > > > > into problems with a system?
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Best,
> > >> > > > > > > > Robert
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the
> > DingTalk.
> > >> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> > >> questions,
> > >> > but
> > >> > > > > > people
> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing
> > list
> > >> > > > > frequently.
> > >> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies,
> > >> although
> > >> > in
> > >> > > > > hours.
> > >> > > > > > > > >     - It means users can get problems solved by using
> > >> mailing
> > >> > > > list.
> > >> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> > >> > > searching.
> > >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh
> which
> > >> > > supports
> > >> > > > > > > > searching
> > >> > > > > > > > > itself.
> > >> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing
> up
> > >> on
> > >> > > > Baidu.
> > >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve
> this.
> > >> IMO,
> > >> > > > Baidu
> > >> > > > > is
> > >> > > > > > > not
> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > >> > > > > > > > > Jark
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > [1].
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <
> > >> [hidden email]>
> > >> > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because
> > most
> > >> > > > questions
> > >> > > > > > are
> > >> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to
> 10,000
> > >> > people
> > >> > > > now.
> > >> > > > > > > > Here're
> > >> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and
> > >> > updates,
> > >> > > > > > > broadcast
> > >> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for
> > ask-answer
> > >> > > > > questions
> > >> > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not
> > 10,000...)
> > >> We
> > >> > > > > probably
> > >> > > > > > > all
> > >> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really
> > >> searchable,
> > >> > > > topics
> > >> > > > > > lost
> > >> > > > > > > > > fast,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without
> evening
> > >> doing
> > >> > > any
> > >> > > > > > > > homework
> > >> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat
> > and
> > >> > > haven't
> > >> > > > > > > really
> > >> > > > > > > > > look
> > >> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the
> > >> group
> > >> > is
> > >> > > > > also
> > >> > > > > > > > going
> > >> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems.
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still
> exists
> > >> > > nowadays
> > >> > > > > for
> > >> > > > > > > its
> > >> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic
> > >> > focused,
> > >> > > > > etc.
> > >> > > > > > > And
> > >> > > > > > > > I
> > >> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer
> > should
> > >> > > happen
> > >> > > > in
> > >> > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified
> what
> > >> that
> > >> > > > > DingTalk
> > >> > > > > > > > group
> > >> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work
> > >> together
> > >> > > with
> > >> > > > > our
> > >> > > > > > > > > user-zh
> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of
> > >> just
> > >> > let
> > >> > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > drive
> > >> > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect
> on
> > >> how
> > >> > we
> > >> > > > > should
> > >> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should
> > >> only be
> > >> > > > used
> > >> > > > > > for
> > >> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates,
> > >> > > > broadcasting
> > >> > > > > > live
> > >> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions
> > >> should
> > >> > be
> > >> > > > > > diverted
> > >> > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk
> > >> group
> > >> > so
> > >> > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > they
> > >> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts.
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Bowen
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <
> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all,
> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a few months
> old
> > >> and
> > >> > I
> > >> > > > > wanted
> > >> > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > hear
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going.
> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group
> (5000
> > >> ?),
> > >> > I
> > >> > > > > would
> > >> > > > > > > have
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I
> > >> also
> > >> > > > > > understand
> > >> > > > > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the
> > last
> > >> > > > century.
> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10
> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help
> > >> adoption
> > >> > > of
> > >> > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > > mailing
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> list?
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list
> > >> showing up
> > >> > > on
> > >> > > > > > Baidu
> > >> > > > > > > > when
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not,
> does
> > it
> > >> > > makes
> > >> > > > > > sense
> > >> > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> have
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?
> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Best,
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Robert
> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <
> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great.
> > >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> >
>

[vino yang]

Hi all,

The main reason is that the Apache mail server has been used and caused a bounce attack on the QQ mailbox.

Detailed description: The third parties forged the domain name of the QQ mailbox to send spam to the Apache mail server. The Apache mail server does not make a correct check and mistakenly thought that the spammers were from QQ mailbox instead of third parties, so that these spam emails were returned back to the QQ mail server, and a large number of bouncers to the QQ mailbox server caused a bounce attack. Therefore, the anti-spam system of QQ mailbox automatically applies the interception strategy. Besides bounce emails, some normal emails are also blocked. 

At present, QQ mailbox temporarily uses a more relaxed anti-spam strategy for the Apache mail server. However, if QQ mail server continues to receive a large number of bounce emails, it will also take effective interception measures. In the history of QQ mailbox, not all emails from the Apache mail server will be intercepted, most of the rejections are part of the bounce attack. 

So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from Apache mail server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ mailbox to facilitate the location problem.

The attached file contains a sample of spam that was rejected and returned to the QQ mailbox.

Best,

Vino

vino yang <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 上午10:16写道：

Hi Robert,

Yes,  QQ mail product belongs to Tencent and I work at Tencent.

I am contacting QQ mail team and trying to know the reason. Once I get the reply and explanation. I will sync here.

Best,

Vino.

Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月20日周四 下午10:59写道：

Thanks a lot!

qq.com belongs to Tencent, right?
As far as I know, we have some active contributors working at Tencent (Vino
Yang). Maybe he or other employees from Tencent following this mailing
list, could help to make a connection to the QQ teams to resolve that
problem?



On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:43 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit us, and all our
> efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend people use other
> providers."
>
> I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails when using
> apache
> mailing list.
>
> Best,
> Kurt
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and see what will
> > happen.
> >
> > Best,
> > Kurt
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you all for working on this!
> >>
> >> +1 on conducting a survey!
> >>
> >> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see a similar
> >> example, also mentioning qq.com:
> >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to find out
> >> why
> >> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com?
> >> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese.
> >> >
> >> > Best,
> >> > Kurt
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hi Gordon,
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information!
> >> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of people
> >> told me
> >> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I think
> >> your
> >> > > information gives a good answer!
> >> > >
> >> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of `user-zh-subscribe@
> `.
> >> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to subscribe
> using
> >> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize more
> >> about
> >> > it
> >> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`.
> >> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the users if
> >> they
> >> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing `user-zh-subscribe@`?
> >> This
> >> > > may
> >> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list.
> >> > >
> >> > > - Network problem.
> >> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now, I told
> >> one
> >> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows everything
> >> becomes
> >> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we can
> do
> >> is
> >> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use Gmail
> >> in
> >> > > preference to qq.com, etc.
> >> > >
> >> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this week.
> I
> >> > want
> >> > > to let more people join in the survey.
> >> > >
> >> > > Best, Hequn
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <
> >> > [hidden email]>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Hi all,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as a
> >> > moderator
> >> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be someone trying to
> >> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, and
> not
> >> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can do in
> >> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in
> >> subscribing
> >> > to
> >> > > > the Apache mailing list.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email
> >> domains,
> >> > for
> >> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked. This
> >> > would
> >> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing list
> >> since
> >> > > they
> >> > > > can't complete the subscribe process.
> >> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email
> >> > conversations
> >> > > > from the mailing list either.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Best,
> >> > > > Gordon
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> >> > people
> >> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use
> >> mailing
> >> > > > list
> >> > > > > frequently.
> >> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people
> >> more
> >> > on
> >> > > > > mailing lists?
> >> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several
> >> times,
> >> > > when
> >> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use user-zh
> >> ML.
> >> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you help
> >> > answer
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the
> >> question in
> >> > > > group
> >> > > > > again.
> >> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is
> >> growing
> >> > > too
> >> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number grows from 5,000
> >> to
> >> > > > 10,000
> >> > > > > in the past months.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> >> searching.
> >> > We
> >> > > > can
> >> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching
> >> itself.
> >> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> >> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link:
> >> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
> >> > > > >   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
> >> > information?
> >> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu for
> >> most
> >> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
> >> > > > >   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on
> >> this.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a
> >> better
> >> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users need.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Best,
> >> > > > > Jark
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]
> >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > Hi,
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark
> >> for
> >> > > your
> >> > > > > nice
> >> > > > > > thoughts.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason
> >> is
> >> > > that
> >> > > > a
> >> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a
> >> lot of
> >> > > > > people
> >> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group.
> Even
> >> > > though,
> >> > > > > for
> >> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in
> the
> >> > > > DingTalk
> >> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group.
> >> For
> >> > > > these
> >> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming
> >> ruined. In
> >> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I
> >> > think
> >> > > we
> >> > > > > can
> >> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such
> >> as:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more
> >> > convenient
> >> > > > and
> >> > > > > > fast.
> >> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list.
> >> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list.
> >> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing
> list
> >> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user
> mailing
> >> > list
> >> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
> >> > > > > > 7. other reasons.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Best, Hequn
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <
> [hidden email]>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation
> >> team
> >> > has
> >> > > > > done
> >> > > > > > a
> >> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion
> is
> >> not
> >> > > > about
> >> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high
> >> growth
> >> > > pain
> >> > > > > > IMHO.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions,
> >> but
> >> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind
> users
> >> to
> >> > > use
> >> > > > > > > mailing list frequently.
> >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate
> people
> >> > more
> >> > > > on
> >> > > > > > > mailing lists?
> >> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with
> >> lower
> >> > > > cost
> >> > > > > > than
> >> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the
> >> case
> >> > > > too.
> >> > > > > > The
> >> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down with it
> >> > > though.
> >> > > > > > When I
> >> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were
> >> > typically a
> >> > > > log
> >> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many
> of
> >> > them
> >> > > > > never
> >> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may
> >> have
> >> > > > changed
> >> > > > > > > now, I'm sure.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND
> follow
> >> > good
> >> > > > > > apache
> >> > > > > > > practices.
> >> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and
> with
> >> > > Flink
> >> > > > > > China
> >> > > > > > > operation team".
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on
> >> > user-zh's
> >> > > > low
> >> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation
> >> team
> >> > as
> >> > > > part
> >> > > > > > of
> >> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on
> >> ideas
> >> > and
> >> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are
> >> all
> >> > > > > **devs**
> >> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the
> >> main
> >> > > > > > question
> >> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team**
> >> > voted
> >> > > or
> >> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them
> the
> >> > > > purpose
> >> > > > > of
> >> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's
> something
> >> we
> >> > > can
> >> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China
> >> > operation
> >> > > > team
> >> > > > > > as
> >> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to
> >> join
> >> > > > > related
> >> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now
> on.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <
> >> > > [hidden email]>
> >> > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat
> group
> >> > with
> >> > > > 10k
> >> > > > > > > > members!
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the
> >> > > > Chinese-speaking
> >> > > > > > > world
> >> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow
> AND
> >> > > follow
> >> > > > > > good
> >> > > > > > > > apache practices.
> >> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user
> >> support
> >> > via
> >> > > > > Chat
> >> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people
> >> away
> >> > > > from
> >> > > > > > > that,
> >> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink
> >> in
> >> > > > China.
> >> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using
> >> mailing
> >> > > > lists,
> >> > > > > > or
> >> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> questions,
> >> but
> >> > > > > people
> >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing
> list
> >> > > > > frequently.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case?
> >> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> >> > searching.
> >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which
> >> > > supports
> >> > > > > > > > searching
> >> > > > > > > > > itself.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up
> on
> >> > > Baidu.
> >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this.
> >> IMO,
> >> > > > Baidu
> >> > > > > is
> >> > > > > > > not
> >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
> >> > > > information?
> >> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding
> help
> >> > when
> >> > > > > they
> >> > > > > > > run
> >> > > > > > > > into problems with a system?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Best,
> >> > > > > > > > Robert
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]
> >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the
> DingTalk.
> >> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> >> questions,
> >> > but
> >> > > > > > people
> >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing
> list
> >> > > > > frequently.
> >> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies,
> >> although
> >> > in
> >> > > > > hours.
> >> > > > > > > > >     - It means users can get problems solved by using
> >> mailing
> >> > > > list.
> >> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> >> > > searching.
> >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which
> >> > > supports
> >> > > > > > > > searching
> >> > > > > > > > > itself.
> >> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up
> >> on
> >> > > > Baidu.
> >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this.
> >> IMO,
> >> > > > Baidu
> >> > > > > is
> >> > > > > > > not
> >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Regards,
> >> > > > > > > > > Jark
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > [1].
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <
> >> [hidden email]>
> >> > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because
> most
> >> > > > questions
> >> > > > > > are
> >> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000
> >> > people
> >> > > > now.
> >> > > > > > > > Here're
> >> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and
> >> > updates,
> >> > > > > > > broadcast
> >> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for
> ask-answer
> >> > > > > questions
> >> > > > > > > and
> >> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not
> 10,000...)
> >> We
> >> > > > > probably
> >> > > > > > > all
> >> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really
> >> searchable,
> >> > > > topics
> >> > > > > > lost
> >> > > > > > > > > fast,
> >> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening
> >> doing
> >> > > any
> >> > > > > > > > homework
> >> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat
> and
> >> > > haven't
> >> > > > > > > really
> >> > > > > > > > > look
> >> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the
> >> group
> >> > is
> >> > > > > also
> >> > > > > > > > going
> >> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists
> >> > > nowadays
> >> > > > > for
> >> > > > > > > its
> >> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic
> >> > focused,
> >> > > > > etc.
> >> > > > > > > And
> >> > > > > > > > I
> >> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer
> should
> >> > > happen
> >> > > > in
> >> > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what
> >> that
> >> > > > > DingTalk
> >> > > > > > > > group
> >> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work
> >> together
> >> > > with
> >> > > > > our
> >> > > > > > > > > user-zh
> >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of
> >> just
> >> > let
> >> > > > it
> >> > > > > > > drive
> >> > > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on
> >> how
> >> > we
> >> > > > > should
> >> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should
> >> only be
> >> > > > used
> >> > > > > > for
> >> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates,
> >> > > > broadcasting
> >> > > > > > live
> >> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions
> >> should
> >> > be
> >> > > > > > diverted
> >> > > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk
> >> group
> >> > so
> >> > > > > that
> >> > > > > > > they
> >> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > Bowen
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <
> >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> >> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all,
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a few months old
> >> and
> >> > I
> >> > > > > wanted
> >> > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > hear
> >> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going.
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000
> >> ?),
> >> > I
> >> > > > > would
> >> > > > > > > have
> >> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I
> >> also
> >> > > > > > understand
> >> > > > > > > > that
> >> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the
> last
> >> > > > century.
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119
> >> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help
> >> adoption
> >> > > of
> >> > > > > that
> >> > > > > > > > > mailing
> >> > > > > > > > > >> list?
> >> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list
> >> showing up
> >> > > on
> >> > > > > > Baidu
> >> > > > > > > > when
> >> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does
> it
> >> > > makes
> >> > > > > > sense
> >> > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > >> have
> >> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Best,
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Robert
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <
> >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great.
> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
>

[Kurt Young]

Hi vino,

Thanks for your effort. Could you also share this information with apache
INFRA? Maybe we can find a workable solution together.
You can try to leave comments in this jira:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)

Best,
Kurt


On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 11:45 AM vino yang <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> The main reason is that the *Apache mail server has been used and caused
> a bounce attack on the QQ mailbox*.
>
> Detailed description: The third parties forged the domain name of the QQ
> mailbox to send spam to the Apache mail server. The Apache mail server does
> not make a correct check and mistakenly thought that the spammers were from
> QQ mailbox instead of third parties, so that these spam emails were
> returned back to the QQ mail server, and a large number of bouncers to the
> QQ mailbox server caused a bounce attack. Therefore, the anti-spam system
> of QQ mailbox automatically applies the interception strategy. Besides
> bounce emails, some normal emails are also blocked.
>
> At present, QQ mailbox temporarily uses a more relaxed anti-spam strategy
> for the Apache mail server. However, if QQ mail server continues to receive
> a large number of bounce emails, it will also take effective interception
> measures. In the history of QQ mailbox, not all emails from the Apache mail
> server will be intercepted, most of the rejections are part of the bounce
> attack.
>
> So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from Apache mail
> server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ mailbox to
> facilitate the location problem.
>
> The attached file contains a sample of spam that was rejected and returned
> to the QQ mailbox.
>
> Best,
> Vino
>
> vino yang <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 上午10:16写道：
>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> Yes,  QQ mail product belongs to Tencent and I work at Tencent.
>>
>> I am contacting QQ mail team and trying to know the reason. Once I get
>> the reply and explanation. I will sync here.
>>
>> Best,
>> Vino.
>>
>> Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月20日周四 下午10:59写道：
>>
>>> Thanks a lot!
>>>
>>> qq.com belongs to Tencent, right?
>>> As far as I know, we have some active contributors working at Tencent
>>> (Vino
>>> Yang). Maybe he or other employees from Tencent following this mailing
>>> list, could help to make a connection to the QQ teams to resolve that
>>> problem?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:43 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> > From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit us, and all
>>> our
>>> > efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend people use
>>> other
>>> > providers."
>>> >
>>> > I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails when using
>>> > apache
>>> > mailing list.
>>> >
>>> > Best,
>>> > Kurt
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and see what
>>> will
>>> > > happen.
>>> > >
>>> > > Best,
>>> > > Kurt
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
>>> > > wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >> Thank you all for working on this!
>>> > >>
>>> > >> +1 on conducting a survey!
>>> > >>
>>> > >> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see a
>>> similar
>>> > >> example, also mentioning qq.com:
>>> > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to find
>>> out
>>> > >> why
>>> > >> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com?
>>> > >> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> > Best,
>>> > >> > Kurt
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <
>>> [hidden email]>
>>> > >> wrote:
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> > > Hi Gordon,
>>> > >> > >
>>> > >> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information!
>>> > >> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of
>>> people
>>> > >> told me
>>> > >> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I
>>> think
>>> > >> your
>>> > >> > > information gives a good answer!
>>> > >> > >
>>> > >> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of
>>> `user-zh-subscribe@
>>> > `.
>>> > >> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to subscribe
>>> > using
>>> > >> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize
>>> more
>>> > >> about
>>> > >> > it
>>> > >> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`.
>>> > >> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the
>>> users if
>>> > >> they
>>> > >> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing
>>> `user-zh-subscribe@`?
>>> > >> This
>>> > >> > > may
>>> > >> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list.
>>> > >> > >
>>> > >> > > - Network problem.
>>> > >> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now, I
>>> told
>>> > >> one
>>> > >> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows
>>> everything
>>> > >> becomes
>>> > >> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we
>>> can
>>> > do
>>> > >> is
>>> > >> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use
>>> Gmail
>>> > >> in
>>> > >> > > preference to qq.com, etc.
>>> > >> > >
>>> > >> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this
>>> week.
>>> > I
>>> > >> > want
>>> > >> > > to let more people join in the survey.
>>> > >> > >
>>> > >> > > Best, Hequn
>>> > >> > >
>>> > >> > >
>>> > >> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <
>>> > >> > [hidden email]>
>>> > >> > > wrote:
>>> > >> > >
>>> > >> > > > Hi all,
>>> > >> > > >
>>> > >> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as
>>> a
>>> > >> > moderator
>>> > >> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list:
>>> > >> > > >
>>> > >> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be someone
>>> trying to
>>> > >> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address,
>>> and
>>> > not
>>> > >> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can
>>> do in
>>> > >> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in
>>> > >> subscribing
>>> > >> > to
>>> > >> > > > the Apache mailing list.
>>> > >> > > >
>>> > >> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email
>>> > >> domains,
>>> > >> > for
>>> > >> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked.
>>> This
>>> > >> > would
>>> > >> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing
>>> list
>>> > >> since
>>> > >> > > they
>>> > >> > > > can't complete the subscribe process.
>>> > >> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email
>>> > >> > conversations
>>> > >> > > > from the mailing list either.
>>> > >> > > >
>>> > >> > > > Best,
>>> > >> > > > Gordon
>>> > >> > > >
>>> > >> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]>
>>> > wrote:
>>> > >> > > >
>>> > >> > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
>>> questions, but
>>> > >> > people
>>> > >> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to
>>> use
>>> > >> mailing
>>> > >> > > > list
>>> > >> > > > > frequently.
>>> > >> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate
>>> people
>>> > >> more
>>> > >> > on
>>> > >> > > > > mailing lists?
>>> > >> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said.
>>> Several
>>> > >> times,
>>> > >> > > when
>>> > >> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use
>>> user-zh
>>> > >> ML.
>>> > >> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you
>>> help
>>> > >> > answer
>>> > >> > > > the
>>> > >> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the
>>> > >> question in
>>> > >> > > > group
>>> > >> > > > > again.
>>> > >> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group
>>> is
>>> > >> growing
>>> > >> > > too
>>> > >> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number grows from
>>> 5,000
>>> > >> to
>>> > >> > > > 10,000
>>> > >> > > > > in the past months.
>>> > >> > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
>>> > >> searching.
>>> > >> > We
>>> > >> > > > can
>>> > >> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports
>>> searching
>>> > >> itself.
>>> > >> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
>>> > >> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link:
>>> > >> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
>>> > >> > > > >   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help.
>>> > >> > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
>>> > >> > information?
>>> > >> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu
>>> for
>>> > >> most
>>> > >> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
>>> > >> > > > >   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience
>>> on
>>> > >> this.
>>> > >> > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to
>>> have a
>>> > >> better
>>> > >> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users
>>> need.
>>> > >> > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > Best,
>>> > >> > > > > Jark
>>> > >> > > > >
>>> > >> > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <
>>> [hidden email]
>>> > >
>>> > >> > > wrote:
>>> > >> > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > Hi,
>>> > >> > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and
>>> Jark
>>> > >> for
>>> > >> > > your
>>> > >> > > > > nice
>>> > >> > > > > > thoughts.
>>> > >> > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the
>>> reason
>>> > >> is
>>> > >> > > that
>>> > >> > > > a
>>> > >> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There
>>> are a
>>> > >> lot of
>>> > >> > > > > people
>>> > >> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group.
>>> > Even
>>> > >> > > though,
>>> > >> > > > > for
>>> > >> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved
>>> in
>>> > the
>>> > >> > > > DingTalk
>>> > >> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the
>>> group.
>>> > >> For
>>> > >> > > > these
>>> > >> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.
>>> > >> > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming
>>> > >> ruined. In
>>> > >> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and
>>> Jark, I
>>> > >> > think
>>> > >> > > we
>>> > >> > > > > can
>>> > >> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users,
>>> such
>>> > >> as:
>>> > >> > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more
>>> > >> > convenient
>>> > >> > > > and
>>> > >> > > > > > fast.
>>> > >> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list.
>>> > >> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list.
>>> > >> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user
>>> mailing
>>> > list
>>> > >> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user
>>> > mailing
>>> > >> > list
>>> > >> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
>>> > >> > > > > > 7. other reasons.
>>> > >> > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here.
>>> > >> > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > Best, Hequn
>>> > >> > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <
>>> > [hidden email]>
>>> > >> > > wrote:
>>> > >> > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China
>>> operation
>>> > >> team
>>> > >> > has
>>> > >> > > > > done
>>> > >> > > > > > a
>>> > >> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This
>>> discussion
>>> > is
>>> > >> not
>>> > >> > > > about
>>> > >> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a
>>> high
>>> > >> growth
>>> > >> > > pain
>>> > >> > > > > > IMHO.
>>> > >> > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
>>> questions,
>>> > >> but
>>> > >> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind
>>> > users
>>> > >> to
>>> > >> > > use
>>> > >> > > > > > > mailing list frequently.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate
>>> > people
>>> > >> > more
>>> > >> > > > on
>>> > >> > > > > > > mailing lists?
>>> > >> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast
>>> with
>>> > >> lower
>>> > >> > > > cost
>>> > >> > > > > > than
>>> > >> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll
>>> be the
>>> > >> case
>>> > >> > > > too.
>>> > >> > > > > > The
>>> > >> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down
>>> with it
>>> > >> > > though.
>>> > >> > > > > > When I
>>> > >> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were
>>> > >> > typically a
>>> > >> > > > log
>>> > >> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?".
>>> Many
>>> > of
>>> > >> > them
>>> > >> > > > > never
>>> > >> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations
>>> may
>>> > >> have
>>> > >> > > > changed
>>> > >> > > > > > > now, I'm sure.
>>> > >> > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND
>>> > follow
>>> > >> > good
>>> > >> > > > > > apache
>>> > >> > > > > > > practices.
>>> > >> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include
>>> and
>>> > with
>>> > >> > > Flink
>>> > >> > > > > > China
>>> > >> > > > > > > operation team".
>>> > >> > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on
>>> > >> > user-zh's
>>> > >> > > > low
>>> > >> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China
>>> operation
>>> > >> team
>>> > >> > as
>>> > >> > > > part
>>> > >> > > > > > of
>>> > >> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough
>>> on
>>> > >> ideas
>>> > >> > and
>>> > >> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted
>>> +1 are
>>> > >> all
>>> > >> > > > > **devs**
>>> > >> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna
>>> be the
>>> > >> main
>>> > >> > > > > > question
>>> > >> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation
>>> team**
>>> > >> > voted
>>> > >> > > or
>>> > >> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the
>>> them
>>> > the
>>> > >> > > > purpose
>>> > >> > > > > of
>>> > >> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's
>>> > something
>>> > >> we
>>> > >> > > can
>>> > >> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China
>>> > >> > operation
>>> > >> > > > team
>>> > >> > > > > > as
>>> > >> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging
>>> them to
>>> > >> join
>>> > >> > > > > related
>>> > >> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from
>>> now
>>> > on.
>>> > >> > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <
>>> > >> > > [hidden email]>
>>> > >> > > > > > > wrote:
>>> > >> > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat
>>> > group
>>> > >> > with
>>> > >> > > > 10k
>>> > >> > > > > > > > members!
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the
>>> > >> > > > Chinese-speaking
>>> > >> > > > > > > world
>>> > >> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community
>>> grow
>>> > AND
>>> > >> > > follow
>>> > >> > > > > > good
>>> > >> > > > > > > > apache practices.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user
>>> > >> support
>>> > >> > via
>>> > >> > > > > Chat
>>> > >> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move
>>> people
>>> > >> away
>>> > >> > > > from
>>> > >> > > > > > > that,
>>> > >> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of
>>> Flink
>>> > >> in
>>> > >> > > > China.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using
>>> > >> mailing
>>> > >> > > > lists,
>>> > >> > > > > > or
>>> > >> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption?
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
>>> > questions,
>>> > >> but
>>> > >> > > > > people
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing
>>> > list
>>> > >> > > > > frequently.
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case?
>>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists?
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
>>> > >> > searching.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh
>>> which
>>> > >> > > supports
>>> > >> > > > > > > > searching
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself.
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing
>>> up
>>> > on
>>> > >> > > Baidu.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve
>>> this.
>>> > >> IMO,
>>> > >> > > > Baidu
>>> > >> > > > > is
>>> > >> > > > > > > not
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related
>>> information.
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for
>>> technology-related
>>> > >> > > > information?
>>> > >> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China
>>> finding
>>> > help
>>> > >> > when
>>> > >> > > > > they
>>> > >> > > > > > > run
>>> > >> > > > > > > > into problems with a system?
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > Best,
>>> > >> > > > > > > > Robert
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <
>>> [hidden email]
>>> > >
>>> > >> > > wrote:
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the
>>> > DingTalk.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
>>> > >> questions,
>>> > >> > but
>>> > >> > > > > > people
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing
>>> > list
>>> > >> > > > > frequently.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies,
>>> > >> although
>>> > >> > in
>>> > >> > > > > hours.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - It means users can get problems solved by
>>> using
>>> > >> mailing
>>> > >> > > > list.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't
>>> support
>>> > >> > > searching.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh
>>> which
>>> > >> > > supports
>>> > >> > > > > > > > searching
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not
>>> showing up
>>> > >> on
>>> > >> > > > Baidu.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve
>>> this.
>>> > >> IMO,
>>> > >> > > > Baidu
>>> > >> > > > > is
>>> > >> > > > > > > not
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related
>>> information.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > Regards,
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > Jark
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > [1].
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > >
>>> > >> > > >
>>> > >> > >
>>> > >> >
>>> > >>
>>> >
>>> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <
>>> > >> [hidden email]>
>>> > >> > > > > wrote:
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because
>>> > most
>>> > >> > > > questions
>>> > >> > > > > > are
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to
>>> 10,000
>>> > >> > people
>>> > >> > > > now.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > Here're
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news
>>> and
>>> > >> > updates,
>>> > >> > > > > > > broadcast
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for
>>> > ask-answer
>>> > >> > > > > questions
>>> > >> > > > > > > and
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not
>>> > 10,000...)
>>> > >> We
>>> > >> > > > > probably
>>> > >> > > > > > > all
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really
>>> > >> searchable,
>>> > >> > > > topics
>>> > >> > > > > > lost
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > fast,
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without
>>> evening
>>> > >> doing
>>> > >> > > any
>>> > >> > > > > > > > homework
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group
>>> chat
>>> > and
>>> > >> > > haven't
>>> > >> > > > > > > really
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > look
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in
>>> the
>>> > >> group
>>> > >> > is
>>> > >> > > > > also
>>> > >> > > > > > > > going
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still
>>> exists
>>> > >> > > nowadays
>>> > >> > > > > for
>>> > >> > > > > > > its
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication,
>>> topic
>>> > >> > focused,
>>> > >> > > > > etc.
>>> > >> > > > > > > And
>>> > >> > > > > > > > I
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer
>>> > should
>>> > >> > > happen
>>> > >> > > > in
>>> > >> > > > > > the
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified
>>> what
>>> > >> that
>>> > >> > > > > DingTalk
>>> > >> > > > > > > > group
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work
>>> > >> together
>>> > >> > > with
>>> > >> > > > > our
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > user-zh
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind
>>> of
>>> > >> just
>>> > >> > let
>>> > >> > > > it
>>> > >> > > > > > > drive
>>> > >> > > > > > > > to
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to
>>> reflect on
>>> > >> how
>>> > >> > we
>>> > >> > > > > should
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat
>>> should
>>> > >> only be
>>> > >> > > > used
>>> > >> > > > > > for
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and
>>> updates,
>>> > >> > > > broadcasting
>>> > >> > > > > > live
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions
>>> > >> should
>>> > >> > be
>>> > >> > > > > > diverted
>>> > >> > > > > > > > to
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the
>>> DingTalk
>>> > >> group
>>> > >> > so
>>> > >> > > > > that
>>> > >> > > > > > > they
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Bowen
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <
>>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all,
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a few
>>> months old
>>> > >> and
>>> > >> > I
>>> > >> > > > > wanted
>>> > >> > > > > > > to
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > hear
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group
>>> (5000
>>> > >> ?),
>>> > >> > I
>>> > >> > > > > would
>>> > >> > > > > > > have
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list.
>>> But I
>>> > >> also
>>> > >> > > > > > understand
>>> > >> > > > > > > > that
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the
>>> > last
>>> > >> > > > century.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help
>>> > >> adoption
>>> > >> > > of
>>> > >> > > > > that
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > mailing
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> list?
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list
>>> > >> showing up
>>> > >> > > on
>>> > >> > > > > > Baidu
>>> > >> > > > > > > > when
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not,
>>> does
>>> > it
>>> > >> > > makes
>>> > >> > > > > > sense
>>> > >> > > > > > > to
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> have
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in
>>> China?
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Best,
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Robert
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <
>>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great.
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > > >
>>> > >> > > > >
>>> > >> > > >
>>> > >> > >
>>> > >> >
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> >
>>>
>>

[vino yang]

Hi Kurt,

I have copied my reply to the Jira issue of INFRA[1].

Within my ability, I am happy to coordinate and promote this problem.

Best,
Vino

[1]: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249

Kurt Young <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 下午12:11写道：

> Hi vino,
>
> Thanks for your effort. Could you also share this information with apache
> INFRA? Maybe we can find a workable solution together.
> You can try to leave comments in this jira:
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
>
> Best,
> Kurt
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 11:45 AM vino yang <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The main reason is that the *Apache mail server has been used and caused
> > a bounce attack on the QQ mailbox*.
> >
> > Detailed description: The third parties forged the domain name of the QQ
> > mailbox to send spam to the Apache mail server. The Apache mail server
> does
> > not make a correct check and mistakenly thought that the spammers were
> from
> > QQ mailbox instead of third parties, so that these spam emails were
> > returned back to the QQ mail server, and a large number of bouncers to
> the
> > QQ mailbox server caused a bounce attack. Therefore, the anti-spam system
> > of QQ mailbox automatically applies the interception strategy. Besides
> > bounce emails, some normal emails are also blocked.
> >
> > At present, QQ mailbox temporarily uses a more relaxed anti-spam strategy
> > for the Apache mail server. However, if QQ mail server continues to
> receive
> > a large number of bounce emails, it will also take effective interception
> > measures. In the history of QQ mailbox, not all emails from the Apache
> mail
> > server will be intercepted, most of the rejections are part of the bounce
> > attack.
> >
> > So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from Apache mail
> > server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ mailbox to
> > facilitate the location problem.
> >
> > The attached file contains a sample of spam that was rejected and
> returned
> > to the QQ mailbox.
> >
> > Best,
> > Vino
> >
> > vino yang <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 上午10:16写道：
> >
> >> Hi Robert,
> >>
> >> Yes,  QQ mail product belongs to Tencent and I work at Tencent.
> >>
> >> I am contacting QQ mail team and trying to know the reason. Once I get
> >> the reply and explanation. I will sync here.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Vino.
> >>
> >> Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月20日周四 下午10:59写道：
> >>
> >>> Thanks a lot!
> >>>
> >>> qq.com belongs to Tencent, right?
> >>> As far as I know, we have some active contributors working at Tencent
> >>> (Vino
> >>> Yang). Maybe he or other employees from Tencent following this mailing
> >>> list, could help to make a connection to the QQ teams to resolve that
> >>> problem?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:43 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit us, and all
> >>> our
> >>> > efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend people use
> >>> other
> >>> > providers."
> >>> >
> >>> > I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails when using
> >>> > apache
> >>> > mailing list.
> >>> >
> >>> > Best,
> >>> > Kurt
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > > Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and see what
> >>> will
> >>> > > happen.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Best,
> >>> > > Kurt
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger <
> [hidden email]>
> >>> > > wrote:
> >>> > >
> >>> > >> Thank you all for working on this!
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> +1 on conducting a survey!
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see a
> >>> similar
> >>> > >> example, also mentioning qq.com:
> >>> > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <[hidden email]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to
> find
> >>> out
> >>> > >> why
> >>> > >> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com?
> >>> > >> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> > Best,
> >>> > >> > Kurt
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <
> >>> [hidden email]>
> >>> > >> wrote:
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> > > Hi Gordon,
> >>> > >> > >
> >>> > >> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information!
> >>> > >> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of
> >>> people
> >>> > >> told me
> >>> > >> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I
> >>> think
> >>> > >> your
> >>> > >> > > information gives a good answer!
> >>> > >> > >
> >>> > >> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of
> >>> `user-zh-subscribe@
> >>> > `.
> >>> > >> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to
> subscribe
> >>> > using
> >>> > >> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize
> >>> more
> >>> > >> about
> >>> > >> > it
> >>> > >> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`.
> >>> > >> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the
> >>> users if
> >>> > >> they
> >>> > >> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing
> >>> `user-zh-subscribe@`?
> >>> > >> This
> >>> > >> > > may
> >>> > >> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list.
> >>> > >> > >
> >>> > >> > > - Network problem.
> >>> > >> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now,
> I
> >>> told
> >>> > >> one
> >>> > >> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows
> >>> everything
> >>> > >> becomes
> >>> > >> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we
> >>> can
> >>> > do
> >>> > >> is
> >>> > >> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use
> >>> Gmail
> >>> > >> in
> >>> > >> > > preference to qq.com, etc.
> >>> > >> > >
> >>> > >> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this
> >>> week.
> >>> > I
> >>> > >> > want
> >>> > >> > > to let more people join in the survey.
> >>> > >> > >
> >>> > >> > > Best, Hequn
> >>> > >> > >
> >>> > >> > >
> >>> > >> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <
> >>> > >> > [hidden email]>
> >>> > >> > > wrote:
> >>> > >> > >
> >>> > >> > > > Hi all,
> >>> > >> > > >
> >>> > >> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive
> as
> >>> a
> >>> > >> > moderator
> >>> > >> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list:
> >>> > >> > > >
> >>> > >> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be someone
> >>> trying to
> >>> > >> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address,
> >>> and
> >>> > not
> >>> > >> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can
> >>> do in
> >>> > >> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in
> >>> > >> subscribing
> >>> > >> > to
> >>> > >> > > > the Apache mailing list.
> >>> > >> > > >
> >>> > >> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email
> >>> > >> domains,
> >>> > >> > for
> >>> > >> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being
> blocked.
> >>> This
> >>> > >> > would
> >>> > >> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing
> >>> list
> >>> > >> since
> >>> > >> > > they
> >>> > >> > > > can't complete the subscribe process.
> >>> > >> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email
> >>> > >> > conversations
> >>> > >> > > > from the mailing list either.
> >>> > >> > > >
> >>> > >> > > > Best,
> >>> > >> > > > Gordon
> >>> > >> > > >
> >>> > >> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]>
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> > >> > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> >>> questions, but
> >>> > >> > people
> >>> > >> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to
> >>> use
> >>> > >> mailing
> >>> > >> > > > list
> >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
> >>> > >> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate
> >>> people
> >>> > >> more
> >>> > >> > on
> >>> > >> > > > > mailing lists?
> >>> > >> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said.
> >>> Several
> >>> > >> times,
> >>> > >> > > when
> >>> > >> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use
> >>> user-zh
> >>> > >> ML.
> >>> > >> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could
> you
> >>> help
> >>> > >> > answer
> >>> > >> > > > the
> >>> > >> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the
> >>> > >> question in
> >>> > >> > > > group
> >>> > >> > > > > again.
> >>> > >> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group
> >>> is
> >>> > >> growing
> >>> > >> > > too
> >>> > >> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number grows from
> >>> 5,000
> >>> > >> to
> >>> > >> > > > 10,000
> >>> > >> > > > > in the past months.
> >>> > >> > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> >>> > >> searching.
> >>> > >> > We
> >>> > >> > > > can
> >>> > >> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports
> >>> searching
> >>> > >> itself.
> >>> > >> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> >>> > >> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the
> link:
> >>> > >> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
> >>> > >> > > > >   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help.
> >>> > >> > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
> >>> > >> > information?
> >>> > >> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still
> Baidu
> >>> for
> >>> > >> most
> >>> > >> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
> >>> > >> > > > >   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some
> experience
> >>> on
> >>> > >> this.
> >>> > >> > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to
> >>> have a
> >>> > >> better
> >>> > >> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users
> >>> need.
> >>> > >> > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > Best,
> >>> > >> > > > > Jark
> >>> > >> > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> > >
> >>> > >> > > wrote:
> >>> > >> > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > Hi,
> >>> > >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and
> >>> Jark
> >>> > >> for
> >>> > >> > > your
> >>> > >> > > > > nice
> >>> > >> > > > > > thoughts.
> >>> > >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the
> >>> reason
> >>> > >> is
> >>> > >> > > that
> >>> > >> > > > a
> >>> > >> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There
> >>> are a
> >>> > >> lot of
> >>> > >> > > > > people
> >>> > >> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk
> group.
> >>> > Even
> >>> > >> > > though,
> >>> > >> > > > > for
> >>> > >> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved
> >>> in
> >>> > the
> >>> > >> > > > DingTalk
> >>> > >> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the
> >>> group.
> >>> > >> For
> >>> > >> > > > these
> >>> > >> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.
> >>> > >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming
> >>> > >> ruined. In
> >>> > >> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and
> >>> Jark, I
> >>> > >> > think
> >>> > >> > > we
> >>> > >> > > > > can
> >>> > >> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from
> users,
> >>> such
> >>> > >> as:
> >>> > >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is
> more
> >>> > >> > convenient
> >>> > >> > > > and
> >>> > >> > > > > > fast.
> >>> > >> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing
> list.
> >>> > >> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing
> list.
> >>> > >> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user
> >>> mailing
> >>> > list
> >>> > >> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user
> >>> > mailing
> >>> > >> > list
> >>> > >> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
> >>> > >> > > > > > 7. other reasons.
> >>> > >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here.
> >>> > >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > Best, Hequn
> >>> > >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <
> >>> > [hidden email]>
> >>> > >> > > wrote:
> >>> > >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China
> >>> operation
> >>> > >> team
> >>> > >> > has
> >>> > >> > > > > done
> >>> > >> > > > > > a
> >>> > >> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This
> >>> discussion
> >>> > is
> >>> > >> not
> >>> > >> > > > about
> >>> > >> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a
> >>> high
> >>> > >> growth
> >>> > >> > > pain
> >>> > >> > > > > > IMHO.
> >>> > >> > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> >>> questions,
> >>> > >> but
> >>> > >> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to
> remind
> >>> > users
> >>> > >> to
> >>> > >> > > use
> >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing list frequently.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to
> educate
> >>> > people
> >>> > >> > more
> >>> > >> > > > on
> >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing lists?
> >>> > >> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast
> >>> with
> >>> > >> lower
> >>> > >> > > > cost
> >>> > >> > > > > > than
> >>> > >> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll
> >>> be the
> >>> > >> case
> >>> > >> > > > too.
> >>> > >> > > > > > The
> >>> > >> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down
> >>> with it
> >>> > >> > > though.
> >>> > >> > > > > > When I
> >>> > >> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions
> were
> >>> > >> > typically a
> >>> > >> > > > log
> >>> > >> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?".
> >>> Many
> >>> > of
> >>> > >> > them
> >>> > >> > > > > never
> >>> > >> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations
> >>> may
> >>> > >> have
> >>> > >> > > > changed
> >>> > >> > > > > > > now, I'm sure.
> >>> > >> > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow
> AND
> >>> > follow
> >>> > >> > good
> >>> > >> > > > > > apache
> >>> > >> > > > > > > practices.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include
> >>> and
> >>> > with
> >>> > >> > > Flink
> >>> > >> > > > > > China
> >>> > >> > > > > > > operation team".
> >>> > >> > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question
> on
> >>> > >> > user-zh's
> >>> > >> > > > low
> >>> > >> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China
> >>> operation
> >>> > >> team
> >>> > >> > as
> >>> > >> > > > part
> >>> > >> > > > > > of
> >>> > >> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough
> >>> on
> >>> > >> ideas
> >>> > >> > and
> >>> > >> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted
> >>> +1 are
> >>> > >> all
> >>> > >> > > > > **devs**
> >>> > >> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna
> >>> be the
> >>> > >> main
> >>> > >> > > > > > question
> >>> > >> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation
> >>> team**
> >>> > >> > voted
> >>> > >> > > or
> >>> > >> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the
> >>> them
> >>> > the
> >>> > >> > > > purpose
> >>> > >> > > > > of
> >>> > >> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's
> >>> > something
> >>> > >> we
> >>> > >> > > can
> >>> > >> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink
> China
> >>> > >> > operation
> >>> > >> > > > team
> >>> > >> > > > > > as
> >>> > >> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging
> >>> them to
> >>> > >> join
> >>> > >> > > > > related
> >>> > >> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from
> >>> now
> >>> > on.
> >>> > >> > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <
> >>> > >> > > [hidden email]>
> >>> > >> > > > > > > wrote:
> >>> > >> > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a
> chat
> >>> > group
> >>> > >> > with
> >>> > >> > > > 10k
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > members!
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the
> >>> > >> > > > Chinese-speaking
> >>> > >> > > > > > > world
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community
> >>> grow
> >>> > AND
> >>> > >> > > follow
> >>> > >> > > > > > good
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > apache practices.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing
> user
> >>> > >> support
> >>> > >> > via
> >>> > >> > > > > Chat
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move
> >>> people
> >>> > >> away
> >>> > >> > > > from
> >>> > >> > > > > > > that,
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of
> >>> Flink
> >>> > >> in
> >>> > >> > > > China.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with
> using
> >>> > >> mailing
> >>> > >> > > > lists,
> >>> > >> > > > > > or
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption?
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> >>> > questions,
> >>> > >> but
> >>> > >> > > > > people
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use
> mailing
> >>> > list
> >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case?
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists?
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't
> support
> >>> > >> > searching.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh
> >>> which
> >>> > >> > > supports
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not
> showing
> >>> up
> >>> > on
> >>> > >> > > Baidu.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve
> >>> this.
> >>> > >> IMO,
> >>> > >> > > > Baidu
> >>> > >> > > > > is
> >>> > >> > > > > > > not
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related
> >>> information.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for
> >>> technology-related
> >>> > >> > > > information?
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China
> >>> finding
> >>> > help
> >>> > >> > when
> >>> > >> > > > > they
> >>> > >> > > > > > > run
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > into problems with a system?
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > Best,
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > Robert
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> > >
> >>> > >> > > wrote:
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the
> >>> > DingTalk.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> >>> > >> questions,
> >>> > >> > but
> >>> > >> > > > > > people
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use
> mailing
> >>> > list
> >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies,
> >>> > >> although
> >>> > >> > in
> >>> > >> > > > > hours.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - It means users can get problems solved by
> >>> using
> >>> > >> mailing
> >>> > >> > > > list.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't
> >>> support
> >>> > >> > > searching.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh
> >>> which
> >>> > >> > > supports
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not
> >>> showing up
> >>> > >> on
> >>> > >> > > > Baidu.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve
> >>> this.
> >>> > >> IMO,
> >>> > >> > > > Baidu
> >>> > >> > > > > is
> >>> > >> > > > > > > not
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related
> >>> information.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Regards,
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Jark
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > [1].
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > >
> >>> > >> > > >
> >>> > >> > >
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >>
> >>> >
> >>>
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <
> >>> > >> [hidden email]>
> >>> > >> > > > > wrote:
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's
> because
> >>> > most
> >>> > >> > > > questions
> >>> > >> > > > > > are
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to
> >>> 10,000
> >>> > >> > people
> >>> > >> > > > now.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > Here're
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news
> >>> and
> >>> > >> > updates,
> >>> > >> > > > > > > broadcast
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for
> >>> > ask-answer
> >>> > >> > > > > questions
> >>> > >> > > > > > > and
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not
> >>> > 10,000...)
> >>> > >> We
> >>> > >> > > > > probably
> >>> > >> > > > > > > all
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really
> >>> > >> searchable,
> >>> > >> > > > topics
> >>> > >> > > > > > lost
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > fast,
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without
> >>> evening
> >>> > >> doing
> >>> > >> > > any
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > homework
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group
> >>> chat
> >>> > and
> >>> > >> > > haven't
> >>> > >> > > > > > > really
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > look
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in
> >>> the
> >>> > >> group
> >>> > >> > is
> >>> > >> > > > > also
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > going
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still
> >>> exists
> >>> > >> > > nowadays
> >>> > >> > > > > for
> >>> > >> > > > > > > its
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication,
> >>> topic
> >>> > >> > focused,
> >>> > >> > > > > etc.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > And
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > I
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer
> >>> > should
> >>> > >> > > happen
> >>> > >> > > > in
> >>> > >> > > > > > the
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified
> >>> what
> >>> > >> that
> >>> > >> > > > > DingTalk
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > group
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should
> work
> >>> > >> together
> >>> > >> > > with
> >>> > >> > > > > our
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > user-zh
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and
> kind
> >>> of
> >>> > >> just
> >>> > >> > let
> >>> > >> > > > it
> >>> > >> > > > > > > drive
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > to
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to
> >>> reflect on
> >>> > >> how
> >>> > >> > we
> >>> > >> > > > > should
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat
> >>> should
> >>> > >> only be
> >>> > >> > > > used
> >>> > >> > > > > > for
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and
> >>> updates,
> >>> > >> > > > broadcasting
> >>> > >> > > > > > live
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical
> discussions
> >>> > >> should
> >>> > >> > be
> >>> > >> > > > > > diverted
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > to
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the
> >>> DingTalk
> >>> > >> group
> >>> > >> > so
> >>> > >> > > > > that
> >>> > >> > > > > > > they
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Bowen
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <
> >>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all,
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a few
> >>> months old
> >>> > >> and
> >>> > >> > I
> >>> > >> > > > > wanted
> >>> > >> > > > > > > to
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > hear
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group
> >>> (5000
> >>> > >> ?),
> >>> > >> > I
> >>> > >> > > > > would
> >>> > >> > > > > > > have
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list.
> >>> But I
> >>> > >> also
> >>> > >> > > > > > understand
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > that
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from
> the
> >>> > last
> >>> > >> > > > century.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to
> help
> >>> > >> adoption
> >>> > >> > > of
> >>> > >> > > > > that
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > mailing
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> list?
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list
> >>> > >> showing up
> >>> > >> > > on
> >>> > >> > > > > > Baidu
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > when
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not,
> >>> does
> >>> > it
> >>> > >> > > makes
> >>> > >> > > > > > sense
> >>> > >> > > > > > > to
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> have
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in
> >>> China?
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Best,
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Robert
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <
> >>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great.
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> > > > >
> >>> > >> > > >
> >>> > >> > >
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>
>

[Hequn Cheng]

Hi Vino,

Great thanks for your help.

> So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from Apache mail
server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ mailbox to
facilitate the location problem.

I just got one feedback.
A user([hidden email]) report that he can't receive the emails from the
Chinese-speaking mailing list. He had subscripted successfully on
2019-05-10. Everything goes well until 2019-05-10 and no more emails come
again from the mailing list.

Best, Hequn

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 12:56 PM vino yang <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Kurt,
>
> I have copied my reply to the Jira issue of INFRA[1].
>
> Within my ability, I am happy to coordinate and promote this problem.
>
> Best,
> Vino
>
> [1]: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249
>
> Kurt Young <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 下午12:11写道：
>
> > Hi vino,
> >
> > Thanks for your effort. Could you also share this information with apache
> > INFRA? Maybe we can find a workable solution together.
> > You can try to leave comments in this jira:
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
> >
> > Best,
> > Kurt
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 11:45 AM vino yang <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > The main reason is that the *Apache mail server has been used and
> caused
> > > a bounce attack on the QQ mailbox*.
> > >
> > > Detailed description: The third parties forged the domain name of the
> QQ
> > > mailbox to send spam to the Apache mail server. The Apache mail server
> > does
> > > not make a correct check and mistakenly thought that the spammers were
> > from
> > > QQ mailbox instead of third parties, so that these spam emails were
> > > returned back to the QQ mail server, and a large number of bouncers to
> > the
> > > QQ mailbox server caused a bounce attack. Therefore, the anti-spam
> system
> > > of QQ mailbox automatically applies the interception strategy. Besides
> > > bounce emails, some normal emails are also blocked.
> > >
> > > At present, QQ mailbox temporarily uses a more relaxed anti-spam
> strategy
> > > for the Apache mail server. However, if QQ mail server continues to
> > receive
> > > a large number of bounce emails, it will also take effective
> interception
> > > measures. In the history of QQ mailbox, not all emails from the Apache
> > mail
> > > server will be intercepted, most of the rejections are part of the
> bounce
> > > attack.
> > >
> > > So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from Apache
> mail
> > > server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ mailbox to
> > > facilitate the location problem.
> > >
> > > The attached file contains a sample of spam that was rejected and
> > returned
> > > to the QQ mailbox.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Vino
> > >
> > > vino yang <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 上午10:16写道：
> > >
> > >> Hi Robert,
> > >>
> > >> Yes,  QQ mail product belongs to Tencent and I work at Tencent.
> > >>
> > >> I am contacting QQ mail team and trying to know the reason. Once I get
> > >> the reply and explanation. I will sync here.
> > >>
> > >> Best,
> > >> Vino.
> > >>
> > >> Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月20日周四 下午10:59写道：
> > >>
> > >>> Thanks a lot!
> > >>>
> > >>> qq.com belongs to Tencent, right?
> > >>> As far as I know, we have some active contributors working at Tencent
> > >>> (Vino
> > >>> Yang). Maybe he or other employees from Tencent following this
> mailing
> > >>> list, could help to make a connection to the QQ teams to resolve that
> > >>> problem?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:43 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> > From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit us, and
> all
> > >>> our
> > >>> > efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend people
> use
> > >>> other
> > >>> > providers."
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails when
> using
> > >>> > apache
> > >>> > mailing list.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Best,
> > >>> > Kurt
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > > Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and see what
> > >>> will
> > >>> > > happen.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Best,
> > >>> > > Kurt
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger <
> > [hidden email]>
> > >>> > > wrote:
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >> Thank you all for working on this!
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >> +1 on conducting a survey!
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see a
> > >>> similar
> > >>> > >> example, also mentioning qq.com:
> > >>> > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <[hidden email]>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to
> > find
> > >>> out
> > >>> > >> why
> > >>> > >> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com?
> > >>> > >> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese.
> > >>> > >> >
> > >>> > >> > Best,
> > >>> > >> > Kurt
> > >>> > >> >
> > >>> > >> >
> > >>> > >> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <
> > >>> [hidden email]>
> > >>> > >> wrote:
> > >>> > >> >
> > >>> > >> > > Hi Gordon,
> > >>> > >> > >
> > >>> > >> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information!
> > >>> > >> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of
> > >>> people
> > >>> > >> told me
> > >>> > >> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list
> normally. I
> > >>> think
> > >>> > >> your
> > >>> > >> > > information gives a good answer!
> > >>> > >> > >
> > >>> > >> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of
> > >>> `user-zh-subscribe@
> > >>> > `.
> > >>> > >> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to
> > subscribe
> > >>> > using
> > >>> > >> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also
> emphasize
> > >>> more
> > >>> > >> about
> > >>> > >> > it
> > >>> > >> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`.
> > >>> > >> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the
> > >>> users if
> > >>> > >> they
> > >>> > >> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing
> > >>> `user-zh-subscribe@`?
> > >>> > >> This
> > >>> > >> > > may
> > >>> > >> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list.
> > >>> > >> > >
> > >>> > >> > > - Network problem.
> > >>> > >> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just
> now,
> > I
> > >>> told
> > >>> > >> one
> > >>> > >> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows
> > >>> everything
> > >>> > >> becomes
> > >>> > >> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing
> we
> > >>> can
> > >>> > do
> > >>> > >> is
> > >>> > >> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell them to
> use
> > >>> Gmail
> > >>> > >> in
> > >>> > >> > > preference to qq.com, etc.
> > >>> > >> > >
> > >>> > >> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday
> this
> > >>> week.
> > >>> > I
> > >>> > >> > want
> > >>> > >> > > to let more people join in the survey.
> > >>> > >> > >
> > >>> > >> > > Best, Hequn
> > >>> > >> > >
> > >>> > >> > >
> > >>> > >> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <
> > >>> > >> > [hidden email]>
> > >>> > >> > > wrote:
> > >>> > >> > >
> > >>> > >> > > > Hi all,
> > >>> > >> > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive
> > as
> > >>> a
> > >>> > >> > moderator
> > >>> > >> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list:
> > >>> > >> > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be someone
> > >>> trying to
> > >>> > >> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@
> address,
> > >>> and
> > >>> > not
> > >>> > >> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we
> can
> > >>> do in
> > >>> > >> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in
> > >>> > >> subscribing
> > >>> > >> > to
> > >>> > >> > > > the Apache mailing list.
> > >>> > >> > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some
> email
> > >>> > >> domains,
> > >>> > >> > for
> > >>> > >> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being
> > blocked.
> > >>> This
> > >>> > >> > would
> > >>> > >> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing
> > >>> list
> > >>> > >> since
> > >>> > >> > > they
> > >>> > >> > > > can't complete the subscribe process.
> > >>> > >> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email
> > >>> > >> > conversations
> > >>> > >> > > > from the mailing list either.
> > >>> > >> > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > Best,
> > >>> > >> > > > Gordon
> > >>> > >> > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <
> [hidden email]>
> > >>> > wrote:
> > >>> > >> > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> > >>> questions, but
> > >>> > >> > people
> > >>> > >> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users
> to
> > >>> use
> > >>> > >> mailing
> > >>> > >> > > > list
> > >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate
> > >>> people
> > >>> > >> more
> > >>> > >> > on
> > >>> > >> > > > > mailing lists?
> > >>> > >> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said.
> > >>> Several
> > >>> > >> times,
> > >>> > >> > > when
> > >>> > >> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use
> > >>> user-zh
> > >>> > >> ML.
> > >>> > >> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could
> > you
> > >>> help
> > >>> > >> > answer
> > >>> > >> > > > the
> > >>> > >> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer
> the
> > >>> > >> question in
> > >>> > >> > > > group
> > >>> > >> > > > > again.
> > >>> > >> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk
> group
> > >>> is
> > >>> > >> growing
> > >>> > >> > > too
> > >>> > >> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number grows
> from
> > >>> 5,000
> > >>> > >> to
> > >>> > >> > > > 10,000
> > >>> > >> > > > > in the past months.
> > >>> > >> > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> > >>> > >> searching.
> > >>> > >> > We
> > >>> > >> > > > can
> > >>> > >> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports
> > >>> searching
> > >>> > >> itself.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > >>> > >> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the
> > link:
> > >>> > >> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
> > >>> > >> > > > >   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help.
> > >>> > >> > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for
> technology-related
> > >>> > >> > information?
> > >>> > >> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still
> > Baidu
> > >>> for
> > >>> > >> most
> > >>> > >> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
> > >>> > >> > > > >   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some
> > experience
> > >>> on
> > >>> > >> this.
> > >>> > >> > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to
> > >>> have a
> > >>> > >> better
> > >>> > >> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do
> users
> > >>> need.
> > >>> > >> > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > Best,
> > >>> > >> > > > > Jark
> > >>> > >> > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <
> > >>> [hidden email]
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >> > > wrote:
> > >>> > >> > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > Hi,
> > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen
> and
> > >>> Jark
> > >>> > >> for
> > >>> > >> > > your
> > >>> > >> > > > > nice
> > >>> > >> > > > > > thoughts.
> > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think
> the
> > >>> reason
> > >>> > >> is
> > >>> > >> > > that
> > >>> > >> > > > a
> > >>> > >> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There
> > >>> are a
> > >>> > >> lot of
> > >>> > >> > > > > people
> > >>> > >> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk
> > group.
> > >>> > Even
> > >>> > >> > > though,
> > >>> > >> > > > > for
> > >>> > >> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be
> solved
> > >>> in
> > >>> > the
> > >>> > >> > > > DingTalk
> > >>> > >> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in
> the
> > >>> group.
> > >>> > >> For
> > >>> > >> > > > these
> > >>> > >> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.
> > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are
> becoming
> > >>> > >> ruined. In
> > >>> > >> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and
> > >>> Jark, I
> > >>> > >> > think
> > >>> > >> > > we
> > >>> > >> > > > > can
> > >>> > >> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from
> > users,
> > >>> such
> > >>> > >> as:
> > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is
> > more
> > >>> > >> > convenient
> > >>> > >> > > > and
> > >>> > >> > > > > > fast.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing
> > list.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing
> > list.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user
> > >>> mailing
> > >>> > list
> > >>> > >> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese
> user
> > >>> > mailing
> > >>> > >> > list
> > >>> > >> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > 7. other reasons.
> > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here.
> > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > Best, Hequn
> > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <
> > >>> > [hidden email]>
> > >>> > >> > > wrote:
> > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China
> > >>> operation
> > >>> > >> team
> > >>> > >> > has
> > >>> > >> > > > > done
> > >>> > >> > > > > > a
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This
> > >>> discussion
> > >>> > is
> > >>> > >> not
> > >>> > >> > > > about
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a
> > >>> high
> > >>> > >> growth
> > >>> > >> > > pain
> > >>> > >> > > > > > IMHO.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> > >>> questions,
> > >>> > >> but
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to
> > remind
> > >>> > users
> > >>> > >> to
> > >>> > >> > > use
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing list frequently.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to
> > educate
> > >>> > people
> > >>> > >> > more
> > >>> > >> > > > on
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing lists?
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and
> fast
> > >>> with
> > >>> > >> lower
> > >>> > >> > > > cost
> > >>> > >> > > > > > than
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel,
> it'll
> > >>> be the
> > >>> > >> case
> > >>> > >> > > > too.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > The
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down
> > >>> with it
> > >>> > >> > > though.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > When I
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions
> > were
> > >>> > >> > typically a
> > >>> > >> > > > log
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this
> before?".
> > >>> Many
> > >>> > of
> > >>> > >> > them
> > >>> > >> > > > > never
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others.
> Situations
> > >>> may
> > >>> > >> have
> > >>> > >> > > > changed
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > now, I'm sure.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow
> > AND
> > >>> > follow
> > >>> > >> > good
> > >>> > >> > > > > > apache
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > practices.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means
> "include
> > >>> and
> > >>> > with
> > >>> > >> > > Flink
> > >>> > >> > > > > > China
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > operation team".
> > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original
> question
> > on
> > >>> > >> > user-zh's
> > >>> > >> > > > low
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China
> > >>> operation
> > >>> > >> team
> > >>> > >> > as
> > >>> > >> > > > part
> > >>> > >> > > > > > of
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well
> enough
> > >>> on
> > >>> > >> ideas
> > >>> > >> > and
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people
> voted
> > >>> +1 are
> > >>> > >> all
> > >>> > >> > > > > **devs**
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's
> gonna
> > >>> be the
> > >>> > >> main
> > >>> > >> > > > > > question
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our
> operation
> > >>> team**
> > >>> > >> > voted
> > >>> > >> > > or
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to
> the
> > >>> them
> > >>> > the
> > >>> > >> > > > purpose
> > >>> > >> > > > > of
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's
> > >>> > something
> > >>> > >> we
> > >>> > >> > > can
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink
> > China
> > >>> > >> > operation
> > >>> > >> > > > team
> > >>> > >> > > > > > as
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging
> > >>> them to
> > >>> > >> join
> > >>> > >> > > > > related
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list
> from
> > >>> now
> > >>> > on.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <
> > >>> > >> > > [hidden email]>
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > wrote:
> > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a
> > chat
> > >>> > group
> > >>> > >> > with
> > >>> > >> > > > 10k
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > members!
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in
> the
> > >>> > >> > > > Chinese-speaking
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > world
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the
> community
> > >>> grow
> > >>> > AND
> > >>> > >> > > follow
> > >>> > >> > > > > > good
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > apache practices.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing
> > user
> > >>> > >> support
> > >>> > >> > via
> > >>> > >> > > > > Chat
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to
> move
> > >>> people
> > >>> > >> away
> > >>> > >> > > > from
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > that,
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption
> of
> > >>> Flink
> > >>> > >> in
> > >>> > >> > > > China.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with
> > using
> > >>> > >> mailing
> > >>> > >> > > > lists,
> > >>> > >> > > > > > or
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption?
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> > >>> > questions,
> > >>> > >> but
> > >>> > >> > > > > people
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use
> > mailing
> > >>> > list
> > >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case?
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing
> lists?
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't
> > support
> > >>> > >> > searching.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for
> user-zh
> > >>> which
> > >>> > >> > > supports
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not
> > showing
> > >>> up
> > >>> > on
> > >>> > >> > > Baidu.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to
> improve
> > >>> this.
> > >>> > >> IMO,
> > >>> > >> > > > Baidu
> > >>> > >> > > > > is
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > not
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related
> > >>> information.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for
> > >>> technology-related
> > >>> > >> > > > information?
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China
> > >>> finding
> > >>> > help
> > >>> > >> > when
> > >>> > >> > > > > they
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > run
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > into problems with a system?
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Best,
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Robert
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <
> > >>> [hidden email]
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >> > > wrote:
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the
> > >>> > DingTalk.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> > >>> > >> questions,
> > >>> > >> > but
> > >>> > >> > > > > > people
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use
> > mailing
> > >>> > list
> > >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have
> replies,
> > >>> > >> although
> > >>> > >> > in
> > >>> > >> > > > > hours.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - It means users can get problems solved by
> > >>> using
> > >>> > >> mailing
> > >>> > >> > > > list.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't
> > >>> support
> > >>> > >> > > searching.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for
> user-zh
> > >>> which
> > >>> > >> > > supports
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not
> > >>> showing up
> > >>> > >> on
> > >>> > >> > > > Baidu.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to
> improve
> > >>> this.
> > >>> > >> IMO,
> > >>> > >> > > > Baidu
> > >>> > >> > > > > is
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > not
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related
> > >>> information.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Jark
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > [1].
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > >
> > >>> > >> > >
> > >>> > >> >
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <
> > >>> > >> [hidden email]>
> > >>> > >> > > > > wrote:
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's
> > because
> > >>> > most
> > >>> > >> > > > questions
> > >>> > >> > > > > > are
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to
> > >>> 10,000
> > >>> > >> > people
> > >>> > >> > > > now.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Here're
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce
> news
> > >>> and
> > >>> > >> > updates,
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > broadcast
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for
> > >>> > ask-answer
> > >>> > >> > > > > questions
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > and
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not
> > >>> > 10,000...)
> > >>> > >> We
> > >>> > >> > > > > probably
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > all
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really
> > >>> > >> searchable,
> > >>> > >> > > > topics
> > >>> > >> > > > > > lost
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > fast,
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without
> > >>> evening
> > >>> > >> doing
> > >>> > >> > > any
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > homework
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group
> > >>> chat
> > >>> > and
> > >>> > >> > > haven't
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > really
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > look
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat
> in
> > >>> the
> > >>> > >> group
> > >>> > >> > is
> > >>> > >> > > > > also
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > going
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it
> still
> > >>> exists
> > >>> > >> > > nowadays
> > >>> > >> > > > > for
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > its
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication,
> > >>> topic
> > >>> > >> > focused,
> > >>> > >> > > > > etc.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > And
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > I
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and
> ask-answer
> > >>> > should
> > >>> > >> > > happen
> > >>> > >> > > > in
> > >>> > >> > > > > > the
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't
> clarified
> > >>> what
> > >>> > >> that
> > >>> > >> > > > > DingTalk
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > group
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should
> > work
> > >>> > >> together
> > >>> > >> > > with
> > >>> > >> > > > > our
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > user-zh
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and
> > kind
> > >>> of
> > >>> > >> just
> > >>> > >> > let
> > >>> > >> > > > it
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > drive
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > to
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to
> > >>> reflect on
> > >>> > >> how
> > >>> > >> > we
> > >>> > >> > > > > should
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat
> > >>> should
> > >>> > >> only be
> > >>> > >> > > > used
> > >>> > >> > > > > > for
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and
> > >>> updates,
> > >>> > >> > > > broadcasting
> > >>> > >> > > > > > live
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical
> > discussions
> > >>> > >> should
> > >>> > >> > be
> > >>> > >> > > > > > diverted
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > to
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the
> > >>> DingTalk
> > >>> > >> group
> > >>> > >> > so
> > >>> > >> > > > > that
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > they
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Bowen
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert
> Metzger <
> > >>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all,
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a few
> > >>> months old
> > >>> > >> and
> > >>> > >> > I
> > >>> > >> > > > > wanted
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > to
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > hear
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk
> group
> > >>> (5000
> > >>> > >> ?),
> > >>> > >> > I
> > >>> > >> > > > > would
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > have
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list.
> > >>> But I
> > >>> > >> also
> > >>> > >> > > > > > understand
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > that
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from
> > the
> > >>> > last
> > >>> > >> > > > century.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to
> > help
> > >>> > >> adoption
> > >>> > >> > > of
> > >>> > >> > > > > that
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > mailing
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> list?
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing
> list
> > >>> > >> showing up
> > >>> > >> > > on
> > >>> > >> > > > > > Baidu
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > when
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If
> not,
> > >>> does
> > >>> > it
> > >>> > >> > > makes
> > >>> > >> > > > > > sense
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > to
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> have
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in
> > >>> China?
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Best,
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Robert
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan
> <
> > >>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great.
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > > >
> > >>> > >> > > >
> > >>> > >> > >
> > >>> > >> >
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
>

[vino yang]

Hi Hequn,

Thanks for reporting this case.

The reason replied by QQ mail team is also caused by *bounce attack*.  So
this mail address has been intercepted and it's an IP level interception.

Today, the QQ mail team has unblocked this email address. So it can receive
the follow-up email from Apache mail server normally.

If this email address still can not work normally in the future. Please
report it here again.

Best,
Vino


Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 下午2:39写道：

> Hi Vino,
>
> Great thanks for your help.
>
> > So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from Apache mail
> server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ mailbox to
> facilitate the location problem.
>
> I just got one feedback.
> A user([hidden email]) report that he can't receive the emails from the
> Chinese-speaking mailing list. He had subscripted successfully on
> 2019-05-10. Everything goes well until 2019-05-10 and no more emails come
> again from the mailing list.
>
> Best, Hequn
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 12:56 PM vino yang <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Kurt,
> >
> > I have copied my reply to the Jira issue of INFRA[1].
> >
> > Within my ability, I am happy to coordinate and promote this problem.
> >
> > Best,
> > Vino
> >
> > [1]: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249
> >
> > Kurt Young <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 下午12:11写道：
> >
> > > Hi vino,
> > >
> > > Thanks for your effort. Could you also share this information with
> apache
> > > INFRA? Maybe we can find a workable solution together.
> > > You can try to leave comments in this jira:
> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Kurt
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 11:45 AM vino yang <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > The main reason is that the *Apache mail server has been used and
> > caused
> > > > a bounce attack on the QQ mailbox*.
> > > >
> > > > Detailed description: The third parties forged the domain name of the
> > QQ
> > > > mailbox to send spam to the Apache mail server. The Apache mail
> server
> > > does
> > > > not make a correct check and mistakenly thought that the spammers
> were
> > > from
> > > > QQ mailbox instead of third parties, so that these spam emails were
> > > > returned back to the QQ mail server, and a large number of bouncers
> to
> > > the
> > > > QQ mailbox server caused a bounce attack. Therefore, the anti-spam
> > system
> > > > of QQ mailbox automatically applies the interception strategy.
> Besides
> > > > bounce emails, some normal emails are also blocked.
> > > >
> > > > At present, QQ mailbox temporarily uses a more relaxed anti-spam
> > strategy
> > > > for the Apache mail server. However, if QQ mail server continues to
> > > receive
> > > > a large number of bounce emails, it will also take effective
> > interception
> > > > measures. In the history of QQ mailbox, not all emails from the
> Apache
> > > mail
> > > > server will be intercepted, most of the rejections are part of the
> > bounce
> > > > attack.
> > > >
> > > > So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from Apache
> > mail
> > > > server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ mailbox
> to
> > > > facilitate the location problem.
> > > >
> > > > The attached file contains a sample of spam that was rejected and
> > > returned
> > > > to the QQ mailbox.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Vino
> > > >
> > > > vino yang <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 上午10:16写道：
> > > >
> > > >> Hi Robert,
> > > >>
> > > >> Yes,  QQ mail product belongs to Tencent and I work at Tencent.
> > > >>
> > > >> I am contacting QQ mail team and trying to know the reason. Once I
> get
> > > >> the reply and explanation. I will sync here.
> > > >>
> > > >> Best,
> > > >> Vino.
> > > >>
> > > >> Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月20日周四 下午10:59写道：
> > > >>
> > > >>> Thanks a lot!
> > > >>>
> > > >>> qq.com belongs to Tencent, right?
> > > >>> As far as I know, we have some active contributors working at
> Tencent
> > > >>> (Vino
> > > >>> Yang). Maybe he or other employees from Tencent following this
> > mailing
> > > >>> list, could help to make a connection to the QQ teams to resolve
> that
> > > >>> problem?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:43 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> > From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit us, and
> > all
> > > >>> our
> > > >>> > efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend people
> > use
> > > >>> other
> > > >>> > providers."
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails when
> > using
> > > >>> > apache
> > > >>> > mailing list.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Best,
> > > >>> > Kurt
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > > Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and see
> what
> > > >>> will
> > > >>> > > happen.
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > Best,
> > > >>> > > Kurt
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > >>> > > wrote:
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >> Thank you all for working on this!
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >> +1 on conducting a survey!
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see a
> > > >>> similar
> > > >>> > >> example, also mentioning qq.com:
> > > >>> > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <[hidden email]>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to
> > > find
> > > >>> out
> > > >>> > >> why
> > > >>> > >> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com?
> > > >>> > >> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese.
> > > >>> > >> >
> > > >>> > >> > Best,
> > > >>> > >> > Kurt
> > > >>> > >> >
> > > >>> > >> >
> > > >>> > >> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <
> > > >>> [hidden email]>
> > > >>> > >> wrote:
> > > >>> > >> >
> > > >>> > >> > > Hi Gordon,
> > > >>> > >> > >
> > > >>> > >> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information!
> > > >>> > >> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of
> > > >>> people
> > > >>> > >> told me
> > > >>> > >> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list
> > normally. I
> > > >>> think
> > > >>> > >> your
> > > >>> > >> > > information gives a good answer!
> > > >>> > >> > >
> > > >>> > >> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of
> > > >>> `user-zh-subscribe@
> > > >>> > `.
> > > >>> > >> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to
> > > subscribe
> > > >>> > using
> > > >>> > >> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also
> > emphasize
> > > >>> more
> > > >>> > >> about
> > > >>> > >> > it
> > > >>> > >> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`.
> > > >>> > >> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to
> the
> > > >>> users if
> > > >>> > >> they
> > > >>> > >> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing
> > > >>> `user-zh-subscribe@`?
> > > >>> > >> This
> > > >>> > >> > > may
> > > >>> > >> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing
> list.
> > > >>> > >> > >
> > > >>> > >> > > - Network problem.
> > > >>> > >> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just
> > now,
> > > I
> > > >>> told
> > > >>> > >> one
> > > >>> > >> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows
> > > >>> everything
> > > >>> > >> becomes
> > > >>> > >> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only
> thing
> > we
> > > >>> can
> > > >>> > do
> > > >>> > >> is
> > > >>> > >> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell them to
> > use
> > > >>> Gmail
> > > >>> > >> in
> > > >>> > >> > > preference to qq.com, etc.
> > > >>> > >> > >
> > > >>> > >> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday
> > this
> > > >>> week.
> > > >>> > I
> > > >>> > >> > want
> > > >>> > >> > > to let more people join in the survey.
> > > >>> > >> > >
> > > >>> > >> > > Best, Hequn
> > > >>> > >> > >
> > > >>> > >> > >
> > > >>> > >> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <
> > > >>> > >> > [hidden email]>
> > > >>> > >> > > wrote:
> > > >>> > >> > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > Hi all,
> > > >>> > >> > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I
> receive
> > > as
> > > >>> a
> > > >>> > >> > moderator
> > > >>> > >> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list:
> > > >>> > >> > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be someone
> > > >>> trying to
> > > >>> > >> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@
> > address,
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> > not
> > > >>> > >> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we
> > can
> > > >>> do in
> > > >>> > >> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures
> in
> > > >>> > >> subscribing
> > > >>> > >> > to
> > > >>> > >> > > > the Apache mailing list.
> > > >>> > >> > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some
> > email
> > > >>> > >> domains,
> > > >>> > >> > for
> > > >>> > >> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being
> > > blocked.
> > > >>> This
> > > >>> > >> > would
> > > >>> > >> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the
> mailing
> > > >>> list
> > > >>> > >> since
> > > >>> > >> > > they
> > > >>> > >> > > > can't complete the subscribe process.
> > > >>> > >> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user
> email
> > > >>> > >> > conversations
> > > >>> > >> > > > from the mailing list either.
> > > >>> > >> > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > Best,
> > > >>> > >> > > > Gordon
> > > >>> > >> > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > >>> > wrote:
> > > >>> > >> > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> > > >>> questions, but
> > > >>> > >> > people
> > > >>> > >> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users
> > to
> > > >>> use
> > > >>> > >> mailing
> > > >>> > >> > > > list
> > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to
> educate
> > > >>> people
> > > >>> > >> more
> > > >>> > >> > on
> > > >>> > >> > > > > mailing lists?
> > > >>> > >> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said.
> > > >>> Several
> > > >>> > >> times,
> > > >>> > >> > > when
> > > >>> > >> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please
> use
> > > >>> user-zh
> > > >>> > >> ML.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But
> could
> > > you
> > > >>> help
> > > >>> > >> > answer
> > > >>> > >> > > > the
> > > >>> > >> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer
> > the
> > > >>> > >> question in
> > > >>> > >> > > > group
> > > >>> > >> > > > > again.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk
> > group
> > > >>> is
> > > >>> > >> growing
> > > >>> > >> > > too
> > > >>> > >> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number grows
> > from
> > > >>> 5,000
> > > >>> > >> to
> > > >>> > >> > > > 10,000
> > > >>> > >> > > > > in the past months.
> > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't
> support
> > > >>> > >> searching.
> > > >>> > >> > We
> > > >>> > >> > > > can
> > > >>> > >> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports
> > > >>> searching
> > > >>> > >> itself.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > > >>> > >> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the
> > > link:
> > > >>> > >> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
> > > >>> > >> > > > >   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help.
> > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for
> > technology-related
> > > >>> > >> > information?
> > > >>> > >> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still
> > > Baidu
> > > >>> for
> > > >>> > >> most
> > > >>> > >> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
> > > >>> > >> > > > >   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some
> > > experience
> > > >>> on
> > > >>> > >> this.
> > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way
> to
> > > >>> have a
> > > >>> > >> better
> > > >>> > >> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do
> > users
> > > >>> need.
> > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > Best,
> > > >>> > >> > > > > Jark
> > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <
> > > >>> [hidden email]
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >> > > wrote:
> > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > Hi,
> > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen
> > and
> > > >>> Jark
> > > >>> > >> for
> > > >>> > >> > > your
> > > >>> > >> > > > > nice
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > thoughts.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think
> > the
> > > >>> reason
> > > >>> > >> is
> > > >>> > >> > > that
> > > >>> > >> > > > a
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group.
> There
> > > >>> are a
> > > >>> > >> lot of
> > > >>> > >> > > > > people
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk
> > > group.
> > > >>> > Even
> > > >>> > >> > > though,
> > > >>> > >> > > > > for
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be
> > solved
> > > >>> in
> > > >>> > the
> > > >>> > >> > > > DingTalk
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in
> > the
> > > >>> group.
> > > >>> > >> For
> > > >>> > >> > > > these
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are
> > becoming
> > > >>> > >> ruined. In
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen
> and
> > > >>> Jark, I
> > > >>> > >> > think
> > > >>> > >> > > we
> > > >>> > >> > > > > can
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from
> > > users,
> > > >>> such
> > > >>> > >> as:
> > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is
> > > more
> > > >>> > >> > convenient
> > > >>> > >> > > > and
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > fast.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing
> > > list.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing
> > > list.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user
> > > >>> mailing
> > > >>> > list
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese
> > user
> > > >>> > mailing
> > > >>> > >> > list
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > 7. other reasons.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > Best, Hequn
> > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <
> > > >>> > [hidden email]>
> > > >>> > >> > > wrote:
> > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China
> > > >>> operation
> > > >>> > >> team
> > > >>> > >> > has
> > > >>> > >> > > > > done
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > a
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This
> > > >>> discussion
> > > >>> > is
> > > >>> > >> not
> > > >>> > >> > > > about
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more
> of a
> > > >>> high
> > > >>> > >> growth
> > > >>> > >> > > pain
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > IMHO.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> > > >>> questions,
> > > >>> > >> but
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to
> > > remind
> > > >>> > users
> > > >>> > >> to
> > > >>> > >> > > use
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing list frequently.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to
> > > educate
> > > >>> > people
> > > >>> > >> > more
> > > >>> > >> > > > on
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing lists?
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and
> > fast
> > > >>> with
> > > >>> > >> lower
> > > >>> > >> > > > cost
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > than
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel,
> > it'll
> > > >>> be the
> > > >>> > >> case
> > > >>> > >> > > > too.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > The
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes
> down
> > > >>> with it
> > > >>> > >> > > though.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > When I
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions
> > > were
> > > >>> > >> > typically a
> > > >>> > >> > > > log
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this
> > before?".
> > > >>> Many
> > > >>> > of
> > > >>> > >> > them
> > > >>> > >> > > > > never
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others.
> > Situations
> > > >>> may
> > > >>> > >> have
> > > >>> > >> > > > changed
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > now, I'm sure.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community
> grow
> > > AND
> > > >>> > follow
> > > >>> > >> > good
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > apache
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > practices.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means
> > "include
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> > with
> > > >>> > >> > > Flink
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > China
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > operation team".
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original
> > question
> > > on
> > > >>> > >> > user-zh's
> > > >>> > >> > > > low
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China
> > > >>> operation
> > > >>> > >> team
> > > >>> > >> > as
> > > >>> > >> > > > part
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > of
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well
> > enough
> > > >>> on
> > > >>> > >> ideas
> > > >>> > >> > and
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people
> > voted
> > > >>> +1 are
> > > >>> > >> all
> > > >>> > >> > > > > **devs**
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's
> > gonna
> > > >>> be the
> > > >>> > >> main
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > question
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our
> > operation
> > > >>> team**
> > > >>> > >> > voted
> > > >>> > >> > > or
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to
> > the
> > > >>> them
> > > >>> > the
> > > >>> > >> > > > purpose
> > > >>> > >> > > > > of
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not,
> that's
> > > >>> > something
> > > >>> > >> we
> > > >>> > >> > > can
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink
> > > China
> > > >>> > >> > operation
> > > >>> > >> > > > team
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > as
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and
> encouraging
> > > >>> them to
> > > >>> > >> join
> > > >>> > >> > > > > related
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list
> > from
> > > >>> now
> > > >>> > on.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <
> > > >>> > >> > > [hidden email]>
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding
> a
> > > chat
> > > >>> > group
> > > >>> > >> > with
> > > >>> > >> > > > 10k
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > members!
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in
> > the
> > > >>> > >> > > > Chinese-speaking
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > world
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the
> > community
> > > >>> grow
> > > >>> > AND
> > > >>> > >> > > follow
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > good
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > apache practices.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing
> > > user
> > > >>> > >> support
> > > >>> > >> > via
> > > >>> > >> > > > > Chat
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to
> > move
> > > >>> people
> > > >>> > >> away
> > > >>> > >> > > > from
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > that,
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down
> adoption
> > of
> > > >>> Flink
> > > >>> > >> in
> > > >>> > >> > > > China.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with
> > > using
> > > >>> > >> mailing
> > > >>> > >> > > > lists,
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > or
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption?
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> > > >>> > questions,
> > > >>> > >> but
> > > >>> > >> > > > > people
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use
> > > mailing
> > > >>> > list
> > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case?
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing
> > lists?
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't
> > > support
> > > >>> > >> > searching.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for
> > user-zh
> > > >>> which
> > > >>> > >> > > supports
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not
> > > showing
> > > >>> up
> > > >>> > on
> > > >>> > >> > > Baidu.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to
> > improve
> > > >>> this.
> > > >>> > >> IMO,
> > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu
> > > >>> > >> > > > > is
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > not
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related
> > > >>> information.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for
> > > >>> technology-related
> > > >>> > >> > > > information?
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China
> > > >>> finding
> > > >>> > help
> > > >>> > >> > when
> > > >>> > >> > > > > they
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > run
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > into problems with a system?
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Best,
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Robert
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <
> > > >>> [hidden email]
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >> > > wrote:
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in
> the
> > > >>> > DingTalk.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to
> ask
> > > >>> > >> questions,
> > > >>> > >> > but
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > people
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use
> > > mailing
> > > >>> > list
> > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have
> > replies,
> > > >>> > >> although
> > > >>> > >> > in
> > > >>> > >> > > > > hours.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - It means users can get problems solved
> by
> > > >>> using
> > > >>> > >> mailing
> > > >>> > >> > > > list.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't
> > > >>> support
> > > >>> > >> > > searching.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for
> > user-zh
> > > >>> which
> > > >>> > >> > > supports
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not
> > > >>> showing up
> > > >>> > >> on
> > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to
> > improve
> > > >>> this.
> > > >>> > >> IMO,
> > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu
> > > >>> > >> > > > > is
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > not
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related
> > > >>> information.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Jark
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > [1].
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > >
> > > >>> > >> > >
> > > >>> > >> >
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> >
> > > >>>
> > >
> >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <
> > > >>> > >> [hidden email]>
> > > >>> > >> > > > > wrote:
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's
> > > because
> > > >>> > most
> > > >>> > >> > > > questions
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > are
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close
> to
> > > >>> 10,000
> > > >>> > >> > people
> > > >>> > >> > > > now.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Here're
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce
> > news
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> > >> > updates,
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > broadcast
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE
> for
> > > >>> > ask-answer
> > > >>> > >> > > > > questions
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > and
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not
> > > >>> > 10,000...)
> > > >>> > >> We
> > > >>> > >> > > > > probably
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > all
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not
> really
> > > >>> > >> searchable,
> > > >>> > >> > > > topics
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > lost
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > fast,
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions
> without
> > > >>> evening
> > > >>> > >> doing
> > > >>> > >> > > any
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > homework
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that
> group
> > > >>> chat
> > > >>> > and
> > > >>> > >> > > haven't
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > really
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > look
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the
> heat
> > in
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> > >> group
> > > >>> > >> > is
> > > >>> > >> > > > > also
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > going
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it
> > still
> > > >>> exists
> > > >>> > >> > > nowadays
> > > >>> > >> > > > > for
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > its
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async
> communication,
> > > >>> topic
> > > >>> > >> > focused,
> > > >>> > >> > > > > etc.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > And
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > I
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and
> > ask-answer
> > > >>> > should
> > > >>> > >> > > happen
> > > >>> > >> > > > in
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > the
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't
> > clarified
> > > >>> what
> > > >>> > >> that
> > > >>> > >> > > > > DingTalk
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > group
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should
> > > work
> > > >>> > >> together
> > > >>> > >> > > with
> > > >>> > >> > > > > our
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > user-zh
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and
> > > kind
> > > >>> of
> > > >>> > >> just
> > > >>> > >> > let
> > > >>> > >> > > > it
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > drive
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > to
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to
> > > >>> reflect on
> > > >>> > >> how
> > > >>> > >> > we
> > > >>> > >> > > > > should
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat
> > > >>> should
> > > >>> > >> only be
> > > >>> > >> > > > used
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > for
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and
> > > >>> updates,
> > > >>> > >> > > > broadcasting
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > live
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical
> > > discussions
> > > >>> > >> should
> > > >>> > >> > be
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > diverted
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > to
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the
> > > >>> DingTalk
> > > >>> > >> group
> > > >>> > >> > so
> > > >>> > >> > > > > that
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > they
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Bowen
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert
> > Metzger <
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all,
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a few
> > > >>> months old
> > > >>> > >> and
> > > >>> > >> > I
> > > >>> > >> > > > > wanted
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > to
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > hear
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk
> > group
> > > >>> (5000
> > > >>> > >> ?),
> > > >>> > >> > I
> > > >>> > >> > > > > would
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > have
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing
> list.
> > > >>> But I
> > > >>> > >> also
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > understand
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > that
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology
> from
> > > the
> > > >>> > last
> > > >>> > >> > > > century.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per
> month:
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side
> to
> > > help
> > > >>> > >> adoption
> > > >>> > >> > > of
> > > >>> > >> > > > > that
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> list?
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing
> > list
> > > >>> > >> showing up
> > > >>> > >> > > on
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > Baidu
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > when
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If
> > not,
> > > >>> does
> > > >>> > it
> > > >>> > >> > > makes
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > sense
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > to
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> have
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain
> in
> > > >>> China?
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Best,
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Robert
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao
> Chan
> > <
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great.
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > >>> > >> > > >
> > > >>> > >> > >
> > > >>> > >> >
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
>

[Hequn Cheng]

Hi vino,

Thanks a lot for unblocking the email address. I have told the user about
this.
Hope things can get better.

Best, Hequn

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 3:14 PM vino yang <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Hequn,
>
> Thanks for reporting this case.
>
> The reason replied by QQ mail team is also caused by *bounce attack*.  So
> this mail address has been intercepted and it's an IP level interception.
>
> Today, the QQ mail team has unblocked this email address. So it can receive
> the follow-up email from Apache mail server normally.
>
> If this email address still can not work normally in the future. Please
> report it here again.
>
> Best,
> Vino
>
>
> Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 下午2:39写道：
>
> > Hi Vino,
> >
> > Great thanks for your help.
> >
> > > So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from Apache
> mail
> > server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ mailbox to
> > facilitate the location problem.
> >
> > I just got one feedback.
> > A user([hidden email]) report that he can't receive the emails from
> the
> > Chinese-speaking mailing list. He had subscripted successfully on
> > 2019-05-10. Everything goes well until 2019-05-10 and no more emails come
> > again from the mailing list.
> >
> > Best, Hequn
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 12:56 PM vino yang <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Kurt,
> > >
> > > I have copied my reply to the Jira issue of INFRA[1].
> > >
> > > Within my ability, I am happy to coordinate and promote this problem.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Vino
> > >
> > > [1]: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249
> > >
> > > Kurt Young <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 下午12:11写道：
> > >
> > > > Hi vino,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your effort. Could you also share this information with
> > apache
> > > > INFRA? Maybe we can find a workable solution together.
> > > > You can try to leave comments in this jira:
> > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Kurt
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 11:45 AM vino yang <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > The main reason is that the *Apache mail server has been used and
> > > caused
> > > > > a bounce attack on the QQ mailbox*.
> > > > >
> > > > > Detailed description: The third parties forged the domain name of
> the
> > > QQ
> > > > > mailbox to send spam to the Apache mail server. The Apache mail
> > server
> > > > does
> > > > > not make a correct check and mistakenly thought that the spammers
> > were
> > > > from
> > > > > QQ mailbox instead of third parties, so that these spam emails were
> > > > > returned back to the QQ mail server, and a large number of bouncers
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > QQ mailbox server caused a bounce attack. Therefore, the anti-spam
> > > system
> > > > > of QQ mailbox automatically applies the interception strategy.
> > Besides
> > > > > bounce emails, some normal emails are also blocked.
> > > > >
> > > > > At present, QQ mailbox temporarily uses a more relaxed anti-spam
> > > strategy
> > > > > for the Apache mail server. However, if QQ mail server continues to
> > > > receive
> > > > > a large number of bounce emails, it will also take effective
> > > interception
> > > > > measures. In the history of QQ mailbox, not all emails from the
> > Apache
> > > > mail
> > > > > server will be intercepted, most of the rejections are part of the
> > > bounce
> > > > > attack.
> > > > >
> > > > > So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from Apache
> > > mail
> > > > > server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ
> mailbox
> > to
> > > > > facilitate the location problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > The attached file contains a sample of spam that was rejected and
> > > > returned
> > > > > to the QQ mailbox.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Vino
> > > > >
> > > > > vino yang <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 上午10:16写道：
> > > > >
> > > > >> Hi Robert,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Yes,  QQ mail product belongs to Tencent and I work at Tencent.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I am contacting QQ mail team and trying to know the reason. Once I
> > get
> > > > >> the reply and explanation. I will sync here.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Best,
> > > > >> Vino.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月20日周四 下午10:59写道：
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Thanks a lot!
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> qq.com belongs to Tencent, right?
> > > > >>> As far as I know, we have some active contributors working at
> > Tencent
> > > > >>> (Vino
> > > > >>> Yang). Maybe he or other employees from Tencent following this
> > > mailing
> > > > >>> list, could help to make a connection to the QQ teams to resolve
> > that
> > > > >>> problem?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:43 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> > From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit us,
> and
> > > all
> > > > >>> our
> > > > >>> > efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend
> people
> > > use
> > > > >>> other
> > > > >>> > providers."
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails when
> > > using
> > > > >>> > apache
> > > > >>> > mailing list.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Best,
> > > > >>> > Kurt
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > > Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and see
> > what
> > > > >>> will
> > > > >>> > > happen.
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > Best,
> > > > >>> > > Kurt
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > >>> > > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > >> Thank you all for working on this!
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >> +1 on conducting a survey!
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see
> a
> > > > >>> similar
> > > > >>> > >> example, also mentioning qq.com:
> > > > >>> > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team
> to
> > > > find
> > > > >>> out
> > > > >>> > >> why
> > > > >>> > >> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com?
> > > > >>> > >> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese.
> > > > >>> > >> >
> > > > >>> > >> > Best,
> > > > >>> > >> > Kurt
> > > > >>> > >> >
> > > > >>> > >> >
> > > > >>> > >> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <
> > > > >>> [hidden email]>
> > > > >>> > >> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >> >
> > > > >>> > >> > > Hi Gordon,
> > > > >>> > >> > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information!
> > > > >>> > >> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot
> of
> > > > >>> people
> > > > >>> > >> told me
> > > > >>> > >> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list
> > > normally. I
> > > > >>> think
> > > > >>> > >> your
> > > > >>> > >> > > information gives a good answer!
> > > > >>> > >> > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of
> > > > >>> `user-zh-subscribe@
> > > > >>> > `.
> > > > >>> > >> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to
> > > > subscribe
> > > > >>> > using
> > > > >>> > >> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also
> > > emphasize
> > > > >>> more
> > > > >>> > >> about
> > > > >>> > >> > it
> > > > >>> > >> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`.
> > > > >>> > >> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to
> > the
> > > > >>> users if
> > > > >>> > >> they
> > > > >>> > >> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing
> > > > >>> `user-zh-subscribe@`?
> > > > >>> > >> This
> > > > >>> > >> > > may
> > > > >>> > >> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing
> > list.
> > > > >>> > >> > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > - Network problem.
> > > > >>> > >> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just
> > > now,
> > > > I
> > > > >>> told
> > > > >>> > >> one
> > > > >>> > >> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows
> > > > >>> everything
> > > > >>> > >> becomes
> > > > >>> > >> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only
> > thing
> > > we
> > > > >>> can
> > > > >>> > do
> > > > >>> > >> is
> > > > >>> > >> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell them
> to
> > > use
> > > > >>> Gmail
> > > > >>> > >> in
> > > > >>> > >> > > preference to qq.com, etc.
> > > > >>> > >> > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday
> > > this
> > > > >>> week.
> > > > >>> > I
> > > > >>> > >> > want
> > > > >>> > >> > > to let more people join in the survey.
> > > > >>> > >> > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > Best, Hequn
> > > > >>> > >> > >
> > > > >>> > >> > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <
> > > > >>> > >> > [hidden email]>
> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >> > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > Hi all,
> > > > >>> > >> > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I
> > receive
> > > > as
> > > > >>> a
> > > > >>> > >> > moderator
> > > > >>> > >> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list:
> > > > >>> > >> > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be
> someone
> > > > >>> trying to
> > > > >>> > >> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@
> > > address,
> > > > >>> and
> > > > >>> > not
> > > > >>> > >> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better
> we
> > > can
> > > > >>> do in
> > > > >>> > >> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures
> > in
> > > > >>> > >> subscribing
> > > > >>> > >> > to
> > > > >>> > >> > > > the Apache mailing list.
> > > > >>> > >> > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some
> > > email
> > > > >>> > >> domains,
> > > > >>> > >> > for
> > > > >>> > >> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being
> > > > blocked.
> > > > >>> This
> > > > >>> > >> > would
> > > > >>> > >> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the
> > mailing
> > > > >>> list
> > > > >>> > >> since
> > > > >>> > >> > > they
> > > > >>> > >> > > > can't complete the subscribe process.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user
> > email
> > > > >>> > >> > conversations
> > > > >>> > >> > > > from the mailing list either.
> > > > >>> > >> > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > Best,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > Gordon
> > > > >>> > >> > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >> > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> > > > >>> questions, but
> > > > >>> > >> > people
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind
> users
> > > to
> > > > >>> use
> > > > >>> > >> mailing
> > > > >>> > >> > > > list
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to
> > educate
> > > > >>> people
> > > > >>> > >> more
> > > > >>> > >> > on
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > mailing lists?
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn
> said.
> > > > >>> Several
> > > > >>> > >> times,
> > > > >>> > >> > > when
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please
> > use
> > > > >>> user-zh
> > > > >>> > >> ML.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But
> > could
> > > > you
> > > > >>> help
> > > > >>> > >> > answer
> > > > >>> > >> > > > the
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to
> answer
> > > the
> > > > >>> > >> question in
> > > > >>> > >> > > > group
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > again.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk
> > > group
> > > > >>> is
> > > > >>> > >> growing
> > > > >>> > >> > > too
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number
> grows
> > > from
> > > > >>> 5,000
> > > > >>> > >> to
> > > > >>> > >> > > > 10,000
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > in the past months.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't
> > support
> > > > >>> > >> searching.
> > > > >>> > >> > We
> > > > >>> > >> > > > can
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports
> > > > >>> searching
> > > > >>> > >> itself.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is
> the
> > > > link:
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
> > > > >>> > >> > > > >   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for
> > > technology-related
> > > > >>> > >> > information?
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is
> still
> > > > Baidu
> > > > >>> for
> > > > >>> > >> most
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > >   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some
> > > > experience
> > > > >>> on
> > > > >>> > >> this.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way
> > to
> > > > >>> have a
> > > > >>> > >> better
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do
> > > users
> > > > >>> need.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > Best,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > Jark
> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <
> > > > >>> [hidden email]
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank
> Bowen
> > > and
> > > > >>> Jark
> > > > >>> > >> for
> > > > >>> > >> > > your
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > nice
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > thoughts.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I
> think
> > > the
> > > > >>> reason
> > > > >>> > >> is
> > > > >>> > >> > > that
> > > > >>> > >> > > > a
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group.
> > There
> > > > >>> are a
> > > > >>> > >> lot of
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > people
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the
> DingTalk
> > > > group.
> > > > >>> > Even
> > > > >>> > >> > > though,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > for
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be
> > > solved
> > > > >>> in
> > > > >>> > the
> > > > >>> > >> > > > DingTalk
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost
> in
> > > the
> > > > >>> group.
> > > > >>> > >> For
> > > > >>> > >> > > > these
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are
> > > becoming
> > > > >>> > >> ruined. In
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen
> > and
> > > > >>> Jark, I
> > > > >>> > >> > think
> > > > >>> > >> > > we
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > can
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from
> > > > users,
> > > > >>> such
> > > > >>> > >> as:
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it
> is
> > > > more
> > > > >>> > >> > convenient
> > > > >>> > >> > > > and
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > fast.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user
> mailing
> > > > list.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user
> mailing
> > > > list.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese
> user
> > > > >>> mailing
> > > > >>> > list
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the
> chinese
> > > user
> > > > >>> > mailing
> > > > >>> > >> > list
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 7. other reasons.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Best, Hequn
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <
> > > > >>> > [hidden email]>
> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China
> > > > >>> operation
> > > > >>> > >> team
> > > > >>> > >> > has
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > done
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > a
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This
> > > > >>> discussion
> > > > >>> > is
> > > > >>> > >> not
> > > > >>> > >> > > > about
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more
> > of a
> > > > >>> high
> > > > >>> > >> growth
> > > > >>> > >> > > pain
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > IMHO.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to
> ask
> > > > >>> questions,
> > > > >>> > >> but
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to
> > > > remind
> > > > >>> > users
> > > > >>> > >> to
> > > > >>> > >> > > use
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing list frequently.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to
> > > > educate
> > > > >>> > people
> > > > >>> > >> > more
> > > > >>> > >> > > > on
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing lists?
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy
> and
> > > fast
> > > > >>> with
> > > > >>> > >> lower
> > > > >>> > >> > > > cost
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > than
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel,
> > > it'll
> > > > >>> be the
> > > > >>> > >> case
> > > > >>> > >> > > > too.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > The
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes
> > down
> > > > >>> with it
> > > > >>> > >> > > though.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > When I
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+%
> questions
> > > > were
> > > > >>> > >> > typically a
> > > > >>> > >> > > > log
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this
> > > before?".
> > > > >>> Many
> > > > >>> > of
> > > > >>> > >> > them
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > never
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others.
> > > Situations
> > > > >>> may
> > > > >>> > >> have
> > > > >>> > >> > > > changed
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > now, I'm sure.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community
> > grow
> > > > AND
> > > > >>> > follow
> > > > >>> > >> > good
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > apache
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > practices.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means
> > > "include
> > > > >>> and
> > > > >>> > with
> > > > >>> > >> > > Flink
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > China
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > operation team".
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original
> > > question
> > > > on
> > > > >>> > >> > user-zh's
> > > > >>> > >> > > > low
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China
> > > > >>> operation
> > > > >>> > >> team
> > > > >>> > >> > as
> > > > >>> > >> > > > part
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > of
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well
> > > enough
> > > > >>> on
> > > > >>> > >> ideas
> > > > >>> > >> > and
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people
> > > voted
> > > > >>> +1 are
> > > > >>> > >> all
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > **devs**
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's
> > > gonna
> > > > >>> be the
> > > > >>> > >> main
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > question
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our
> > > operation
> > > > >>> team**
> > > > >>> > >> > voted
> > > > >>> > >> > > or
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated
> to
> > > the
> > > > >>> them
> > > > >>> > the
> > > > >>> > >> > > > purpose
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > of
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not,
> > that's
> > > > >>> > something
> > > > >>> > >> we
> > > > >>> > >> > > can
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take
> Flink
> > > > China
> > > > >>> > >> > operation
> > > > >>> > >> > > > team
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > as
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and
> > encouraging
> > > > >>> them to
> > > > >>> > >> join
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > related
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing
> list
> > > from
> > > > >>> now
> > > > >>> > on.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <
> > > > >>> > >> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations
> regarding
> > a
> > > > chat
> > > > >>> > group
> > > > >>> > >> > with
> > > > >>> > >> > > > 10k
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > members!
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene
> in
> > > the
> > > > >>> > >> > > > Chinese-speaking
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > world
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the
> > > community
> > > > >>> grow
> > > > >>> > AND
> > > > >>> > >> > > follow
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > good
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > apache practices.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are
> doing
> > > > user
> > > > >>> > >> support
> > > > >>> > >> > via
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > Chat
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to
> > > move
> > > > >>> people
> > > > >>> > >> away
> > > > >>> > >> > > > from
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > that,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down
> > adoption
> > > of
> > > > >>> Flink
> > > > >>> > >> in
> > > > >>> > >> > > > China.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay
> with
> > > > using
> > > > >>> > >> mailing
> > > > >>> > >> > > > lists,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > or
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption?
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to
> ask
> > > > >>> > questions,
> > > > >>> > >> but
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > people
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use
> > > > mailing
> > > > >>> > list
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case?
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing
> > > lists?
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't
> > > > support
> > > > >>> > >> > searching.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for
> > > user-zh
> > > > >>> which
> > > > >>> > >> > > supports
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not
> > > > showing
> > > > >>> up
> > > > >>> > on
> > > > >>> > >> > > Baidu.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to
> > > improve
> > > > >>> this.
> > > > >>> > >> IMO,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > is
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > not
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related
> > > > >>> information.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for
> > > > >>> technology-related
> > > > >>> > >> > > > information?
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in
> China
> > > > >>> finding
> > > > >>> > help
> > > > >>> > >> > when
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > they
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > run
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > into problems with a system?
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Robert
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <
> > > > >>> [hidden email]
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in
> > the
> > > > >>> > DingTalk.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to
> > ask
> > > > >>> > >> questions,
> > > > >>> > >> > but
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > people
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use
> > > > mailing
> > > > >>> > list
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have
> > > replies,
> > > > >>> > >> although
> > > > >>> > >> > in
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > hours.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - It means users can get problems solved
> > by
> > > > >>> using
> > > > >>> > >> mailing
> > > > >>> > >> > > > list.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh
> doesn't
> > > > >>> support
> > > > >>> > >> > > searching.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for
> > > user-zh
> > > > >>> which
> > > > >>> > >> > > supports
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are
> not
> > > > >>> showing up
> > > > >>> > >> on
> > > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to
> > > improve
> > > > >>> this.
> > > > >>> > >> IMO,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > is
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > not
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related
> > > > >>> information.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Jark
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > [1].
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > >
> > > > >>> > >> >
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <
> > > > >>> > >> [hidden email]>
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's
> > > > because
> > > > >>> > most
> > > > >>> > >> > > > questions
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > are
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has
> close
> > to
> > > > >>> 10,000
> > > > >>> > >> > people
> > > > >>> > >> > > > now.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Here're
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing,
> announce
> > > news
> > > > >>> and
> > > > >>> > >> > updates,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > broadcast
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE
> > for
> > > > >>> > ask-answer
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > questions
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > and
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely
> not
> > > > >>> > 10,000...)
> > > > >>> > >> We
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > probably
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > all
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not
> > really
> > > > >>> > >> searchable,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > topics
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > lost
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > fast,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions
> > without
> > > > >>> evening
> > > > >>> > >> doing
> > > > >>> > >> > > any
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > homework
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that
> > group
> > > > >>> chat
> > > > >>> > and
> > > > >>> > >> > > haven't
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > really
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > look
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the
> > heat
> > > in
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> > >> group
> > > > >>> > >> > is
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > also
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > going
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it
> > > still
> > > > >>> exists
> > > > >>> > >> > > nowadays
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > for
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > its
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async
> > communication,
> > > > >>> topic
> > > > >>> > >> > focused,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > etc.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > And
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > I
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and
> > > ask-answer
> > > > >>> > should
> > > > >>> > >> > > happen
> > > > >>> > >> > > > in
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > the
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't
> > > clarified
> > > > >>> what
> > > > >>> > >> that
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > DingTalk
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > group
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it
> should
> > > > work
> > > > >>> > >> together
> > > > >>> > >> > > with
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > our
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > user-zh
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat
> and
> > > > kind
> > > > >>> of
> > > > >>> > >> just
> > > > >>> > >> > let
> > > > >>> > >> > > > it
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > drive
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > to
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to
> > > > >>> reflect on
> > > > >>> > >> how
> > > > >>> > >> > we
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > should
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group
> chat
> > > > >>> should
> > > > >>> > >> only be
> > > > >>> > >> > > > used
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > for
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and
> > > > >>> updates,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > broadcasting
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > live
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical
> > > > discussions
> > > > >>> > >> should
> > > > >>> > >> > be
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > diverted
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > to
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of
> the
> > > > >>> DingTalk
> > > > >>> > >> group
> > > > >>> > >> > so
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > that
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > they
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Bowen
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert
> > > Metzger <
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a
> few
> > > > >>> months old
> > > > >>> > >> and
> > > > >>> > >> > I
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > wanted
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > to
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > hear
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk
> > > group
> > > > >>> (5000
> > > > >>> > >> ?),
> > > > >>> > >> > I
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > would
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > have
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing
> > list.
> > > > >>> But I
> > > > >>> > >> also
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > understand
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > that
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > >>> > last
> > > > >>> > >> > > > century.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per
> > month:
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side
> > to
> > > > help
> > > > >>> > >> adoption
> > > > >>> > >> > > of
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > that
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> list?
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the
> mailing
> > > list
> > > > >>> > >> showing up
> > > > >>> > >> > > on
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Baidu
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > when
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink?
> If
> > > not,
> > > > >>> does
> > > > >>> > it
> > > > >>> > >> > > makes
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > sense
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > to
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> have
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain
> > in
> > > > >>> China?
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Best,
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Robert
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao
> > Chan
> > > <
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great.
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > > >
> > > > >>> > >> > >
> > > > >>> > >> >
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Hequn Cheng]

Hi,

I'd like to share you the result of the survey. Thanks for the help
from @Gordon, @Jark and the Flink China operation team when conducting the
survey.

A total of 81 people participated in the survey. 46 of them choose not to
use the mailing list. Among these people, the reasons are(Note that a
respondent may choose multiple reasons):
1. 22 people report that problems can be solved in the Dingtalk group and
it's more convenient than the mailing list.
2. 22 people even don't know there is a Chinese user mailing list.
3. 20 people don't know how to use the mailing list even though they have
ever heard of it.
4. 14 people said that problems can't be solved in the mailing list even
they asked in it.
5. 16 people choose to use the English user mailing list.

From the result, the biggest obstacle that stops more people involved in
the mailing list is people don't know it or don't know how to use it. To
solve the problem, we can do more publicity. I have also recorded a usage
video about how to subscribe and use the mailing list. Hope it will help.

However, doing more publicity is not enough as 14 people said problems
can't be solved efficiently in the mailing list. More people should also be
involved to answer the problems. I don't know whether is it possible for
the Chinese Flink team on duty to answer the problems. I think that would
help.

Great to have other opinions.

Best, Hequn


On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 7:50 PM Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi vino,
>
> Thanks a lot for unblocking the email address. I have told the user about
> this.
> Hope things can get better.
>
> Best, Hequn
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 3:14 PM vino yang <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Hequn,
>>
>> Thanks for reporting this case.
>>
>> The reason replied by QQ mail team is also caused by *bounce attack*.  So
>> this mail address has been intercepted and it's an IP level interception.
>>
>> Today, the QQ mail team has unblocked this email address. So it can
>> receive
>> the follow-up email from Apache mail server normally.
>>
>> If this email address still can not work normally in the future. Please
>> report it here again.
>>
>> Best,
>> Vino
>>
>>
>> Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 下午2:39写道：
>>
>> > Hi Vino,
>> >
>> > Great thanks for your help.
>> >
>> > > So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from Apache
>> mail
>> > server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ mailbox to
>> > facilitate the location problem.
>> >
>> > I just got one feedback.
>> > A user([hidden email]) report that he can't receive the emails from
>> the
>> > Chinese-speaking mailing list. He had subscripted successfully on
>> > 2019-05-10. Everything goes well until 2019-05-10 and no more emails
>> come
>> > again from the mailing list.
>> >
>> > Best, Hequn
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 12:56 PM vino yang <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi Kurt,
>> > >
>> > > I have copied my reply to the Jira issue of INFRA[1].
>> > >
>> > > Within my ability, I am happy to coordinate and promote this problem.
>> > >
>> > > Best,
>> > > Vino
>> > >
>> > > [1]: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249
>> > >
>> > > Kurt Young <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 下午12:11写道：
>> > >
>> > > > Hi vino,
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks for your effort. Could you also share this information with
>> > apache
>> > > > INFRA? Maybe we can find a workable solution together.
>> > > > You can try to leave comments in this jira:
>> > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
>> > > >
>> > > > Best,
>> > > > Kurt
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 11:45 AM vino yang <[hidden email]>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Hi all,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The main reason is that the *Apache mail server has been used and
>> > > caused
>> > > > > a bounce attack on the QQ mailbox*.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Detailed description: The third parties forged the domain name of
>> the
>> > > QQ
>> > > > > mailbox to send spam to the Apache mail server. The Apache mail
>> > server
>> > > > does
>> > > > > not make a correct check and mistakenly thought that the spammers
>> > were
>> > > > from
>> > > > > QQ mailbox instead of third parties, so that these spam emails
>> were
>> > > > > returned back to the QQ mail server, and a large number of
>> bouncers
>> > to
>> > > > the
>> > > > > QQ mailbox server caused a bounce attack. Therefore, the anti-spam
>> > > system
>> > > > > of QQ mailbox automatically applies the interception strategy.
>> > Besides
>> > > > > bounce emails, some normal emails are also blocked.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > At present, QQ mailbox temporarily uses a more relaxed anti-spam
>> > > strategy
>> > > > > for the Apache mail server. However, if QQ mail server continues
>> to
>> > > > receive
>> > > > > a large number of bounce emails, it will also take effective
>> > > interception
>> > > > > measures. In the history of QQ mailbox, not all emails from the
>> > Apache
>> > > > mail
>> > > > > server will be intercepted, most of the rejections are part of the
>> > > bounce
>> > > > > attack.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from
>> Apache
>> > > mail
>> > > > > server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ
>> mailbox
>> > to
>> > > > > facilitate the location problem.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The attached file contains a sample of spam that was rejected and
>> > > > returned
>> > > > > to the QQ mailbox.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Best,
>> > > > > Vino
>> > > > >
>> > > > > vino yang <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 上午10:16写道：
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> Hi Robert,
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Yes,  QQ mail product belongs to Tencent and I work at Tencent.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> I am contacting QQ mail team and trying to know the reason. Once
>> I
>> > get
>> > > > >> the reply and explanation. I will sync here.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Best,
>> > > > >> Vino.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月20日周四 下午10:59写道：
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>> Thanks a lot!
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> qq.com belongs to Tencent, right?
>> > > > >>> As far as I know, we have some active contributors working at
>> > Tencent
>> > > > >>> (Vino
>> > > > >>> Yang). Maybe he or other employees from Tencent following this
>> > > mailing
>> > > > >>> list, could help to make a connection to the QQ teams to resolve
>> > that
>> > > > >>> problem?
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:43 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> > From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit us,
>> and
>> > > all
>> > > > >>> our
>> > > > >>> > efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend
>> people
>> > > use
>> > > > >>> other
>> > > > >>> > providers."
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> > I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails
>> when
>> > > using
>> > > > >>> > apache
>> > > > >>> > mailing list.
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> > Best,
>> > > > >>> > Kurt
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]
>> >
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> > > Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and see
>> > what
>> > > > >>> will
>> > > > >>> > > happen.
>> > > > >>> > >
>> > > > >>> > > Best,
>> > > > >>> > > Kurt
>> > > > >>> > >
>> > > > >>> > >
>> > > > >>> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger <
>> > > > [hidden email]>
>> > > > >>> > > wrote:
>> > > > >>> > >
>> > > > >>> > >> Thank you all for working on this!
>> > > > >>> > >>
>> > > > >>> > >> +1 on conducting a survey!
>> > > > >>> > >>
>> > > > >>> > >> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA
>> (see a
>> > > > >>> similar
>> > > > >>> > >> example, also mentioning qq.com:
>> > > > >>> > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
>> > > > >>> > >>
>> > > > >>> > >>
>> > > > >>> > >>
>> > > > >>> > >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <
>> [hidden email]>
>> > > > >>> wrote:
>> > > > >>> > >>
>> > > > >>> > >> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra
>> team to
>> > > > find
>> > > > >>> out
>> > > > >>> > >> why
>> > > > >>> > >> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com?
>> > > > >>> > >> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese.
>> > > > >>> > >> >
>> > > > >>> > >> > Best,
>> > > > >>> > >> > Kurt
>> > > > >>> > >> >
>> > > > >>> > >> >
>> > > > >>> > >> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <
>> > > > >>> [hidden email]>
>> > > > >>> > >> wrote:
>> > > > >>> > >> >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > Hi Gordon,
>> > > > >>> > >> > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information!
>> > > > >>> > >> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a
>> lot of
>> > > > >>> people
>> > > > >>> > >> told me
>> > > > >>> > >> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list
>> > > normally. I
>> > > > >>> think
>> > > > >>> > >> your
>> > > > >>> > >> > > information gives a good answer!
>> > > > >>> > >> > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of
>> > > > >>> `user-zh-subscribe@
>> > > > >>> > `.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to
>> > > > subscribe
>> > > > >>> > using
>> > > > >>> > >> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also
>> > > emphasize
>> > > > >>> more
>> > > > >>> > >> about
>> > > > >>> > >> > it
>> > > > >>> > >> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to
>> > the
>> > > > >>> users if
>> > > > >>> > >> they
>> > > > >>> > >> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing
>> > > > >>> `user-zh-subscribe@`?
>> > > > >>> > >> This
>> > > > >>> > >> > > may
>> > > > >>> > >> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing
>> > list.
>> > > > >>> > >> > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > - Network problem.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China.
>> Just
>> > > now,
>> > > > I
>> > > > >>> told
>> > > > >>> > >> one
>> > > > >>> > >> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows
>> > > > >>> everything
>> > > > >>> > >> becomes
>> > > > >>> > >> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only
>> > thing
>> > > we
>> > > > >>> can
>> > > > >>> > do
>> > > > >>> > >> is
>> > > > >>> > >> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell
>> them to
>> > > use
>> > > > >>> Gmail
>> > > > >>> > >> in
>> > > > >>> > >> > > preference to qq.com, etc.
>> > > > >>> > >> > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on
>> Friday
>> > > this
>> > > > >>> week.
>> > > > >>> > I
>> > > > >>> > >> > want
>> > > > >>> > >> > > to let more people join in the survey.
>> > > > >>> > >> > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > Best, Hequn
>> > > > >>> > >> > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <
>> > > > >>> > >> > [hidden email]>
>> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote:
>> > > > >>> > >> > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > Hi all,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I
>> > receive
>> > > > as
>> > > > >>> a
>> > > > >>> > >> > moderator
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list:
>> > > > >>> > >> > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be
>> someone
>> > > > >>> trying to
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@
>> > > address,
>> > > > >>> and
>> > > > >>> > not
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better
>> we
>> > > can
>> > > > >>> do in
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the
>> procedures
>> > in
>> > > > >>> > >> subscribing
>> > > > >>> > >> > to
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > the Apache mailing list.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach
>> some
>> > > email
>> > > > >>> > >> domains,
>> > > > >>> > >> > for
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being
>> > > > blocked.
>> > > > >>> This
>> > > > >>> > >> > would
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the
>> > mailing
>> > > > >>> list
>> > > > >>> > >> since
>> > > > >>> > >> > > they
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > can't complete the subscribe process.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user
>> > email
>> > > > >>> > >> > conversations
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > from the mailing list either.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > Best,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > Gordon
>> > > > >>> > >> > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <
>> > > [hidden email]>
>> > > > >>> > wrote:
>> > > > >>> > >> > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
>> > > > >>> questions, but
>> > > > >>> > >> > people
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind
>> users
>> > > to
>> > > > >>> use
>> > > > >>> > >> mailing
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > list
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to
>> > educate
>> > > > >>> people
>> > > > >>> > >> more
>> > > > >>> > >> > on
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > mailing lists?
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn
>> said.
>> > > > >>> Several
>> > > > >>> > >> times,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > when
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them
>> please
>> > use
>> > > > >>> user-zh
>> > > > >>> > >> ML.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But
>> > could
>> > > > you
>> > > > >>> help
>> > > > >>> > >> > answer
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > the
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to
>> answer
>> > > the
>> > > > >>> > >> question in
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > group
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > again.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in
>> Dingtalk
>> > > group
>> > > > >>> is
>> > > > >>> > >> growing
>> > > > >>> > >> > > too
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number
>> grows
>> > > from
>> > > > >>> 5,000
>> > > > >>> > >> to
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > 10,000
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > in the past months.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't
>> > support
>> > > > >>> > >> searching.
>> > > > >>> > >> > We
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > can
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports
>> > > > >>> searching
>> > > > >>> > >> itself.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is
>> the
>> > > > link:
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > >   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the
>> help.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for
>> > > technology-related
>> > > > >>> > >> > information?
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is
>> still
>> > > > Baidu
>> > > > >>> for
>> > > > >>> > >> most
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > >   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some
>> > > > experience
>> > > > >>> on
>> > > > >>> > >> this.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good
>> way
>> > to
>> > > > >>> have a
>> > > > >>> > >> better
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do
>> > > users
>> > > > >>> need.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > Best,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > Jark
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <
>> > > > >>> [hidden email]
>> > > > >>> > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote:
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Hi,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank
>> Bowen
>> > > and
>> > > > >>> Jark
>> > > > >>> > >> for
>> > > > >>> > >> > > your
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > nice
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > thoughts.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I
>> think
>> > > the
>> > > > >>> reason
>> > > > >>> > >> is
>> > > > >>> > >> > > that
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > a
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group.
>> > There
>> > > > >>> are a
>> > > > >>> > >> lot of
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > people
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the
>> DingTalk
>> > > > group.
>> > > > >>> > Even
>> > > > >>> > >> > > though,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > for
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be
>> > > solved
>> > > > >>> in
>> > > > >>> > the
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > DingTalk
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost
>> in
>> > > the
>> > > > >>> group.
>> > > > >>> > >> For
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > these
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good
>> choice.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are
>> > > becoming
>> > > > >>> > >> ruined. In
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by
>> Bowen
>> > and
>> > > > >>> Jark, I
>> > > > >>> > >> > think
>> > > > >>> > >> > > we
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > can
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks
>> from
>> > > > users,
>> > > > >>> such
>> > > > >>> > >> as:
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk,
>> it is
>> > > > more
>> > > > >>> > >> > convenient
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > and
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > fast.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user
>> mailing
>> > > > list.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user
>> mailing
>> > > > list.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese
>> user
>> > > > >>> mailing
>> > > > >>> > list
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the
>> chinese
>> > > user
>> > > > >>> > mailing
>> > > > >>> > >> > list
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 7. other reasons.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it
>> here.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Best, Hequn
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <
>> > > > >>> > [hidden email]>
>> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote:
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink
>> China
>> > > > >>> operation
>> > > > >>> > >> team
>> > > > >>> > >> > has
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > done
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > a
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This
>> > > > >>> discussion
>> > > > >>> > is
>> > > > >>> > >> not
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > about
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more
>> > of a
>> > > > >>> high
>> > > > >>> > >> growth
>> > > > >>> > >> > > pain
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > IMHO.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to
>> ask
>> > > > >>> questions,
>> > > > >>> > >> but
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue
>> to
>> > > > remind
>> > > > >>> > users
>> > > > >>> > >> to
>> > > > >>> > >> > > use
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing list frequently.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to
>> > > > educate
>> > > > >>> > people
>> > > > >>> > >> > more
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > on
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing lists?
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy
>> and
>> > > fast
>> > > > >>> with
>> > > > >>> > >> lower
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > cost
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > than
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel,
>> > > it'll
>> > > > >>> be the
>> > > > >>> > >> case
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > too.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > The
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes
>> > down
>> > > > >>> with it
>> > > > >>> > >> > > though.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > When I
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+%
>> questions
>> > > > were
>> > > > >>> > >> > typically a
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > log
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this
>> > > before?".
>> > > > >>> Many
>> > > > >>> > of
>> > > > >>> > >> > them
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > never
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others.
>> > > Situations
>> > > > >>> may
>> > > > >>> > >> have
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > changed
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > now, I'm sure.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community
>> > grow
>> > > > AND
>> > > > >>> > follow
>> > > > >>> > >> > good
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > apache
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > practices.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means
>> > > "include
>> > > > >>> and
>> > > > >>> > with
>> > > > >>> > >> > > Flink
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > China
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > operation team".
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original
>> > > question
>> > > > on
>> > > > >>> > >> > user-zh's
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > low
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink
>> China
>> > > > >>> operation
>> > > > >>> > >> team
>> > > > >>> > >> > as
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > part
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > of
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well
>> > > enough
>> > > > >>> on
>> > > > >>> > >> ideas
>> > > > >>> > >> > and
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people
>> > > voted
>> > > > >>> +1 are
>> > > > >>> > >> all
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > **devs**
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's
>> > > gonna
>> > > > >>> be the
>> > > > >>> > >> main
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > question
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our
>> > > operation
>> > > > >>> team**
>> > > > >>> > >> > voted
>> > > > >>> > >> > > or
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated
>> to
>> > > the
>> > > > >>> them
>> > > > >>> > the
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > purpose
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > of
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not,
>> > that's
>> > > > >>> > something
>> > > > >>> > >> we
>> > > > >>> > >> > > can
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take
>> Flink
>> > > > China
>> > > > >>> > >> > operation
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > team
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > as
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and
>> > encouraging
>> > > > >>> them to
>> > > > >>> > >> join
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > related
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing
>> list
>> > > from
>> > > > >>> now
>> > > > >>> > on.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger
>> <
>> > > > >>> > >> > > [hidden email]>
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations
>> regarding
>> > a
>> > > > chat
>> > > > >>> > group
>> > > > >>> > >> > with
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > 10k
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > members!
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech
>> scene in
>> > > the
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > Chinese-speaking
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > world
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the
>> > > community
>> > > > >>> grow
>> > > > >>> > AND
>> > > > >>> > >> > > follow
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > good
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > apache practices.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are
>> doing
>> > > > user
>> > > > >>> > >> support
>> > > > >>> > >> > via
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > Chat
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult
>> to
>> > > move
>> > > > >>> people
>> > > > >>> > >> away
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > from
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > that,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down
>> > adoption
>> > > of
>> > > > >>> Flink
>> > > > >>> > >> in
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > China.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay
>> with
>> > > > using
>> > > > >>> > >> mailing
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > lists,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > or
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption?
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to
>> ask
>> > > > >>> > questions,
>> > > > >>> > >> but
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > people
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to
>> use
>> > > > mailing
>> > > > >>> > list
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case?
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing
>> > > lists?
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't
>> > > > support
>> > > > >>> > >> > searching.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for
>> > > user-zh
>> > > > >>> which
>> > > > >>> > >> > > supports
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not
>> > > > showing
>> > > > >>> up
>> > > > >>> > on
>> > > > >>> > >> > > Baidu.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to
>> > > improve
>> > > > >>> this.
>> > > > >>> > >> IMO,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > is
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > not
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related
>> > > > >>> information.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for
>> > > > >>> technology-related
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > information?
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in
>> China
>> > > > >>> finding
>> > > > >>> > help
>> > > > >>> > >> > when
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > they
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > run
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > into problems with a system?
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Best,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Robert
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <
>> > > > >>> [hidden email]
>> > > > >>> > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote:
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in
>> > the
>> > > > >>> > DingTalk.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list
>> to
>> > ask
>> > > > >>> > >> questions,
>> > > > >>> > >> > but
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > people
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to
>> use
>> > > > mailing
>> > > > >>> > list
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have
>> > > replies,
>> > > > >>> > >> although
>> > > > >>> > >> > in
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > hours.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - It means users can get problems
>> solved
>> > by
>> > > > >>> using
>> > > > >>> > >> mailing
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > list.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh
>> doesn't
>> > > > >>> support
>> > > > >>> > >> > > searching.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for
>> > > user-zh
>> > > > >>> which
>> > > > >>> > >> > > supports
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are
>> not
>> > > > >>> showing up
>> > > > >>> > >> on
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to
>> > > improve
>> > > > >>> this.
>> > > > >>> > >> IMO,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > is
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > not
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related
>> > > > >>> information.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Regards,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Jark
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > [1].
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > >
>> > > > >>> > >> >
>> > > > >>> > >>
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>>
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <
>> > > > >>> > >> [hidden email]>
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert.
>> It's
>> > > > because
>> > > > >>> > most
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > questions
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > are
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has
>> close
>> > to
>> > > > >>> 10,000
>> > > > >>> > >> > people
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > now.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Here're
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing,
>> announce
>> > > news
>> > > > >>> and
>> > > > >>> > >> > updates,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > broadcast
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE
>> > for
>> > > > >>> > ask-answer
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > questions
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > and
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely
>> not
>> > > > >>> > 10,000...)
>> > > > >>> > >> We
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > probably
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > all
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not
>> > really
>> > > > >>> > >> searchable,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > topics
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > lost
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > fast,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions
>> > without
>> > > > >>> evening
>> > > > >>> > >> doing
>> > > > >>> > >> > > any
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > homework
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that
>> > group
>> > > > >>> chat
>> > > > >>> > and
>> > > > >>> > >> > > haven't
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > really
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > look
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the
>> > heat
>> > > in
>> > > > >>> the
>> > > > >>> > >> group
>> > > > >>> > >> > is
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > also
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > going
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it
>> > > still
>> > > > >>> exists
>> > > > >>> > >> > > nowadays
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > for
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > its
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async
>> > communication,
>> > > > >>> topic
>> > > > >>> > >> > focused,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > etc.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > And
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > I
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and
>> > > ask-answer
>> > > > >>> > should
>> > > > >>> > >> > > happen
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > in
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > the
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't
>> > > clarified
>> > > > >>> what
>> > > > >>> > >> that
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > DingTalk
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > group
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it
>> should
>> > > > work
>> > > > >>> > >> together
>> > > > >>> > >> > > with
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > our
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > user-zh
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat
>> and
>> > > > kind
>> > > > >>> of
>> > > > >>> > >> just
>> > > > >>> > >> > let
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > it
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > drive
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > to
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time
>> to
>> > > > >>> reflect on
>> > > > >>> > >> how
>> > > > >>> > >> > we
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > should
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group
>> chat
>> > > > >>> should
>> > > > >>> > >> only be
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > used
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > for
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news
>> and
>> > > > >>> updates,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > broadcasting
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > live
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical
>> > > > discussions
>> > > > >>> > >> should
>> > > > >>> > >> > be
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > diverted
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > to
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of
>> the
>> > > > >>> DingTalk
>> > > > >>> > >> group
>> > > > >>> > >> > so
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > that
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > they
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Bowen
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert
>> > > Metzger <
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a
>> few
>> > > > >>> months old
>> > > > >>> > >> and
>> > > > >>> > >> > I
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > wanted
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > to
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > hear
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the
>> DingTalk
>> > > group
>> > > > >>> (5000
>> > > > >>> > >> ?),
>> > > > >>> > >> > I
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > would
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > have
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing
>> > list.
>> > > > >>> But I
>> > > > >>> > >> also
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > understand
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > that
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology
>> > from
>> > > > the
>> > > > >>> > last
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > century.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per
>> > month:
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our
>> side
>> > to
>> > > > help
>> > > > >>> > >> adoption
>> > > > >>> > >> > > of
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > that
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > mailing
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> list?
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the
>> mailing
>> > > list
>> > > > >>> > >> showing up
>> > > > >>> > >> > > on
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Baidu
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > when
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink?
>> If
>> > > not,
>> > > > >>> does
>> > > > >>> > it
>> > > > >>> > >> > > makes
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > sense
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > to
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> have
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a
>> server/domain
>> > in
>> > > > >>> China?
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Best,
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Robert
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao
>> > Chan
>> > > <
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great.
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > > >
>> > > > >>> > >> > >
>> > > > >>> > >> >
>> > > > >>> > >>
>> > > > >>> > >
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>

[Biao Liu]

Hi community,

I have tested two most widely used mailbox website mail.qq.com and
mail.163.com(belongs to Netease).

qq.mail works fine, good job @vino yang <[hidden email]>!
163.mail almost works fine. I have received all the response mails,
although the last one is marked as spam.

I received the new mail of the mailing list from both of them. But there is
a delay of 7 or 8 minutes of 163.com. I'm not sure it's always like this or
not. Will keep observing it.

Another thing, the survey of @Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]> shows that
about 14 people said their questions are not answered in mailing list.
There always be some questions that are hard to answer in the user-zh
mailing list. Like "why my job is delayed" but without providing any
detail, or some questions that are more relevant with Java or operating
system but not Flink. Mail like these probably be ignored.

I have a proposal that we Chinese-speaker of community could do better if
we can give them a response even it's not an answer.
A positive feedback is helpful for the user without a good technical
background. I think the user-zh mailing list would be more active if each
question gets a feedback.


Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月24日周一 上午10:34写道：

> Hi,
>
> I'd like to share you the result of the survey. Thanks for the help
> from @Gordon, @Jark and the Flink China operation team when conducting the
> survey.
>
> A total of 81 people participated in the survey. 46 of them choose not to
> use the mailing list. Among these people, the reasons are(Note that a
> respondent may choose multiple reasons):
> 1. 22 people report that problems can be solved in the Dingtalk group and
> it's more convenient than the mailing list.
> 2. 22 people even don't know there is a Chinese user mailing list.
> 3. 20 people don't know how to use the mailing list even though they have
> ever heard of it.
> 4. 14 people said that problems can't be solved in the mailing list even
> they asked in it.
> 5. 16 people choose to use the English user mailing list.
>
> From the result, the biggest obstacle that stops more people involved in
> the mailing list is people don't know it or don't know how to use it. To
> solve the problem, we can do more publicity. I have also recorded a usage
> video about how to subscribe and use the mailing list. Hope it will help.
>
> However, doing more publicity is not enough as 14 people said problems
> can't be solved efficiently in the mailing list. More people should also be
> involved to answer the problems. I don't know whether is it possible for
> the Chinese Flink team on duty to answer the problems. I think that would
> help.
>
> Great to have other opinions.
>
> Best, Hequn
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 7:50 PM Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi vino,
> >
> > Thanks a lot for unblocking the email address. I have told the user about
> > this.
> > Hope things can get better.
> >
> > Best, Hequn
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 3:14 PM vino yang <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Hequn,
> >>
> >> Thanks for reporting this case.
> >>
> >> The reason replied by QQ mail team is also caused by *bounce attack*.
> So
> >> this mail address has been intercepted and it's an IP level
> interception.
> >>
> >> Today, the QQ mail team has unblocked this email address. So it can
> >> receive
> >> the follow-up email from Apache mail server normally.
> >>
> >> If this email address still can not work normally in the future. Please
> >> report it here again.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Vino
> >>
> >>
> >> Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 下午2:39写道：
> >>
> >> > Hi Vino,
> >> >
> >> > Great thanks for your help.
> >> >
> >> > > So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from Apache
> >> mail
> >> > server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ mailbox
> to
> >> > facilitate the location problem.
> >> >
> >> > I just got one feedback.
> >> > A user([hidden email]) report that he can't receive the emails from
> >> the
> >> > Chinese-speaking mailing list. He had subscripted successfully on
> >> > 2019-05-10. Everything goes well until 2019-05-10 and no more emails
> >> come
> >> > again from the mailing list.
> >> >
> >> > Best, Hequn
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 12:56 PM vino yang <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hi Kurt,
> >> > >
> >> > > I have copied my reply to the Jira issue of INFRA[1].
> >> > >
> >> > > Within my ability, I am happy to coordinate and promote this
> problem.
> >> > >
> >> > > Best,
> >> > > Vino
> >> > >
> >> > > [1]: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249
> >> > >
> >> > > Kurt Young <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 下午12:11写道：
> >> > >
> >> > > > Hi vino,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks for your effort. Could you also share this information with
> >> > apache
> >> > > > INFRA? Maybe we can find a workable solution together.
> >> > > > You can try to leave comments in this jira:
> >> > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Best,
> >> > > > Kurt
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 11:45 AM vino yang <[hidden email]
> >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > Hi all,
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The main reason is that the *Apache mail server has been used
> and
> >> > > caused
> >> > > > > a bounce attack on the QQ mailbox*.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Detailed description: The third parties forged the domain name
> of
> >> the
> >> > > QQ
> >> > > > > mailbox to send spam to the Apache mail server. The Apache mail
> >> > server
> >> > > > does
> >> > > > > not make a correct check and mistakenly thought that the
> spammers
> >> > were
> >> > > > from
> >> > > > > QQ mailbox instead of third parties, so that these spam emails
> >> were
> >> > > > > returned back to the QQ mail server, and a large number of
> >> bouncers
> >> > to
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > QQ mailbox server caused a bounce attack. Therefore, the
> anti-spam
> >> > > system
> >> > > > > of QQ mailbox automatically applies the interception strategy.
> >> > Besides
> >> > > > > bounce emails, some normal emails are also blocked.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > At present, QQ mailbox temporarily uses a more relaxed anti-spam
> >> > > strategy
> >> > > > > for the Apache mail server. However, if QQ mail server continues
> >> to
> >> > > > receive
> >> > > > > a large number of bounce emails, it will also take effective
> >> > > interception
> >> > > > > measures. In the history of QQ mailbox, not all emails from the
> >> > Apache
> >> > > > mail
> >> > > > > server will be intercepted, most of the rejections are part of
> the
> >> > > bounce
> >> > > > > attack.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from
> >> Apache
> >> > > mail
> >> > > > > server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ
> >> mailbox
> >> > to
> >> > > > > facilitate the location problem.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The attached file contains a sample of spam that was rejected
> and
> >> > > > returned
> >> > > > > to the QQ mailbox.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Best,
> >> > > > > Vino
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > vino yang <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月21日周五 上午10:16写道：
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >> Hi Robert,
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> Yes,  QQ mail product belongs to Tencent and I work at Tencent.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> I am contacting QQ mail team and trying to know the reason.
> Once
> >> I
> >> > get
> >> > > > >> the reply and explanation. I will sync here.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> Best,
> >> > > > >> Vino.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> 于2019年6月20日周四 下午10:59写道：
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >>> Thanks a lot!
> >> > > > >>>
> >> > > > >>> qq.com belongs to Tencent, right?
> >> > > > >>> As far as I know, we have some active contributors working at
> >> > Tencent
> >> > > > >>> (Vino
> >> > > > >>> Yang). Maybe he or other employees from Tencent following this
> >> > > mailing
> >> > > > >>> list, could help to make a connection to the QQ teams to
> resolve
> >> > that
> >> > > > >>> problem?
> >> > > > >>>
> >> > > > >>>
> >> > > > >>>
> >> > > > >>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:43 PM Kurt Young <[hidden email]>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > > > >>>
> >> > > > >>> > From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit
> us,
> >> and
> >> > > all
> >> > > > >>> our
> >> > > > >>> > efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend
> >> people
> >> > > use
> >> > > > >>> other
> >> > > > >>> > providers."
> >> > > > >>> >
> >> > > > >>> > I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails
> >> when
> >> > > using
> >> > > > >>> > apache
> >> > > > >>> > mailing list.
> >> > > > >>> >
> >> > > > >>> > Best,
> >> > > > >>> > Kurt
> >> > > > >>> >
> >> > > > >>> >
> >> > > > >>> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young <
> [hidden email]
> >> >
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > > >>> >
> >> > > > >>> > > Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and
> see
> >> > what
> >> > > > >>> will
> >> > > > >>> > > happen.
> >> > > > >>> > >
> >> > > > >>> > > Best,
> >> > > > >>> > > Kurt
> >> > > > >>> > >
> >> > > > >>> > >
> >> > > > >>> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger <
> >> > > > [hidden email]>
> >> > > > >>> > > wrote:
> >> > > > >>> > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> Thank you all for working on this!
> >> > > > >>> > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >> +1 on conducting a survey!
> >> > > > >>> > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA
> >> (see a
> >> > > > >>> similar
> >> > > > >>> > >> example, also mentioning qq.com:
> >> > > > >>> > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249)
> >> > > > >>> > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <
> >> [hidden email]>
> >> > > > >>> wrote:
> >> > > > >>> > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra
> >> team to
> >> > > > find
> >> > > > >>> out
> >> > > > >>> > >> why
> >> > > > >>> > >> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com?
> >> > > > >>> > >> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese.
> >> > > > >>> > >> >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > Best,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > Kurt
> >> > > > >>> > >> >
> >> > > > >>> > >> >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <
> >> > > > >>> [hidden email]>
> >> > > > >>> > >> wrote:
> >> > > > >>> > >> >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > Hi Gordon,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information!
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a
> >> lot of
> >> > > > >>> people
> >> > > > >>> > >> told me
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list
> >> > > normally. I
> >> > > > >>> think
> >> > > > >>> > >> your
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > information gives a good answer!
> >> > > > >>> > >> > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of
> >> > > > >>> `user-zh-subscribe@
> >> > > > >>> > `.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to
> >> > > > subscribe
> >> > > > >>> > using
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also
> >> > > emphasize
> >> > > > >>> more
> >> > > > >>> > >> about
> >> > > > >>> > >> > it
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply
> to
> >> > the
> >> > > > >>> users if
> >> > > > >>> > >> they
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing
> >> > > > >>> `user-zh-subscribe@`?
> >> > > > >>> > >> This
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > may
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking
> mailing
> >> > list.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > - Network problem.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China.
> >> Just
> >> > > now,
> >> > > > I
> >> > > > >>> told
> >> > > > >>> > >> one
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result
> shows
> >> > > > >>> everything
> >> > > > >>> > >> becomes
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only
> >> > thing
> >> > > we
> >> > > > >>> can
> >> > > > >>> > do
> >> > > > >>> > >> is
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell
> >> them to
> >> > > use
> >> > > > >>> Gmail
> >> > > > >>> > >> in
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > preference to qq.com, etc.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on
> >> Friday
> >> > > this
> >> > > > >>> week.
> >> > > > >>> > I
> >> > > > >>> > >> > want
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > to let more people join in the survey.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > Best, Hequn
> >> > > > >>> > >> > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai
> <
> >> > > > >>> > >> > [hidden email]>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > >>> > >> > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Hi all,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I
> >> > receive
> >> > > > as
> >> > > > >>> a
> >> > > > >>> > >> > moderator
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list:
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be
> >> someone
> >> > > > >>> trying to
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@
> >> > > address,
> >> > > > >>> and
> >> > > > >>> > not
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something
> better
> >> we
> >> > > can
> >> > > > >>> do in
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the
> >> procedures
> >> > in
> >> > > > >>> > >> subscribing
> >> > > > >>> > >> > to
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > the Apache mailing list.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach
> >> some
> >> > > email
> >> > > > >>> > >> domains,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > for
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are
> being
> >> > > > blocked.
> >> > > > >>> This
> >> > > > >>> > >> > would
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the
> >> > mailing
> >> > > > >>> list
> >> > > > >>> > >> since
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > they
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > can't complete the subscribe process.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal
> user
> >> > email
> >> > > > >>> > >> > conversations
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > from the mailing list either.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Best,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Gordon
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <
> >> > > [hidden email]>
> >> > > > >>> > wrote:
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask
> >> > > > >>> questions, but
> >> > > > >>> > >> > people
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind
> >> users
> >> > > to
> >> > > > >>> use
> >> > > > >>> > >> mailing
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > list
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to
> >> > educate
> >> > > > >>> people
> >> > > > >>> > >> more
> >> > > > >>> > >> > on
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > mailing lists?
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn
> >> said.
> >> > > > >>> Several
> >> > > > >>> > >> times,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > when
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them
> >> please
> >> > use
> >> > > > >>> user-zh
> >> > > > >>> > >> ML.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But
> >> > could
> >> > > > you
> >> > > > >>> help
> >> > > > >>> > >> > answer
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > the
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to
> >> answer
> >> > > the
> >> > > > >>> > >> question in
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > group
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > again.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in
> >> Dingtalk
> >> > > group
> >> > > > >>> is
> >> > > > >>> > >> growing
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > too
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number
> >> grows
> >> > > from
> >> > > > >>> 5,000
> >> > > > >>> > >> to
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > 10,000
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > in the past months.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't
> >> > support
> >> > > > >>> > >> searching.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > We
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > can
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which
> supports
> >> > > > >>> searching
> >> > > > >>> > >> itself.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is
> >> the
> >> > > > link:
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the
> >> help.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for
> >> > > technology-related
> >> > > > >>> > >> > information?
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is
> >> still
> >> > > > Baidu
> >> > > > >>> for
> >> > > > >>> > >> most
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve
> SEO.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some
> >> > > > experience
> >> > > > >>> on
> >> > > > >>> > >> this.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good
> >> way
> >> > to
> >> > > > >>> have a
> >> > > > >>> > >> better
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what
> do
> >> > > users
> >> > > > >>> need.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > Best,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > Jark
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <
> >> > > > >>> [hidden email]
> >> > > > >>> > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Hi,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank
> >> Bowen
> >> > > and
> >> > > > >>> Jark
> >> > > > >>> > >> for
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > your
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > nice
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > thoughts.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I
> >> think
> >> > > the
> >> > > > >>> reason
> >> > > > >>> > >> is
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > that
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > a
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the
> group.
> >> > There
> >> > > > >>> are a
> >> > > > >>> > >> lot of
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > people
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the
> >> DingTalk
> >> > > > group.
> >> > > > >>> > Even
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > though,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > for
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well
> be
> >> > > solved
> >> > > > >>> in
> >> > > > >>> > the
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > DingTalk
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and
> lost
> >> in
> >> > > the
> >> > > > >>> group.
> >> > > > >>> > >> For
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > these
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good
> >> choice.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are
> >> > > becoming
> >> > > > >>> > >> ruined. In
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by
> >> Bowen
> >> > and
> >> > > > >>> Jark, I
> >> > > > >>> > >> > think
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > we
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > can
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks
> >> from
> >> > > > users,
> >> > > > >>> such
> >> > > > >>> > >> as:
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk,
> >> it is
> >> > > > more
> >> > > > >>> > >> > convenient
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > and
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > fast.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user
> >> mailing
> >> > > > list.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user
> >> mailing
> >> > > > list.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese
> >> user
> >> > > > >>> mailing
> >> > > > >>> > list
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the
> >> chinese
> >> > > user
> >> > > > >>> > mailing
> >> > > > >>> > >> > list
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing
> list.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 7. other reasons.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it
> >> here.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Best, Hequn
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <
> >> > > > >>> > [hidden email]>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink
> >> China
> >> > > > >>> operation
> >> > > > >>> > >> team
> >> > > > >>> > >> > has
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > done
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > a
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China!
> This
> >> > > > >>> discussion
> >> > > > >>> > is
> >> > > > >>> > >> not
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > about
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as
> more
> >> > of a
> >> > > > >>> high
> >> > > > >>> > >> growth
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > pain
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > IMHO.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to
> >> ask
> >> > > > >>> questions,
> >> > > > >>> > >> but
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue
> >> to
> >> > > > remind
> >> > > > >>> > users
> >> > > > >>> > >> to
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > use
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing list frequently.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need
> to
> >> > > > educate
> >> > > > >>> > people
> >> > > > >>> > >> > more
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > on
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing lists?
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy
> >> and
> >> > > fast
> >> > > > >>> with
> >> > > > >>> > >> lower
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > cost
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > than
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack
> channel,
> >> > > it'll
> >> > > > >>> be the
> >> > > > >>> > >> case
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > too.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > The
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also
> goes
> >> > down
> >> > > > >>> with it
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > though.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > When I
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+%
> >> questions
> >> > > > were
> >> > > > >>> > >> > typically a
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > log
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this
> >> > > before?".
> >> > > > >>> Many
> >> > > > >>> > of
> >> > > > >>> > >> > them
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > never
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others.
> >> > > Situations
> >> > > > >>> may
> >> > > > >>> > >> have
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > changed
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > now, I'm sure.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the
> community
> >> > grow
> >> > > > AND
> >> > > > >>> > follow
> >> > > > >>> > >> > good
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > apache
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > practices.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means
> >> > > "include
> >> > > > >>> and
> >> > > > >>> > with
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > Flink
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > China
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > operation team".
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original
> >> > > question
> >> > > > on
> >> > > > >>> > >> > user-zh's
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > low
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink
> >> China
> >> > > > >>> operation
> >> > > > >>> > >> team
> >> > > > >>> > >> > as
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > part
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > of
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned
> well
> >> > > enough
> >> > > > >>> on
> >> > > > >>> > >> ideas
> >> > > > >>> > >> > and
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh,
> people
> >> > > voted
> >> > > > >>> +1 are
> >> > > > >>> > >> all
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > **devs**
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that
> it's
> >> > > gonna
> >> > > > >>> be the
> >> > > > >>> > >> main
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > question
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our
> >> > > operation
> >> > > > >>> team**
> >> > > > >>> > >> > voted
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > or
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we
> communicated
> >> to
> >> > > the
> >> > > > >>> them
> >> > > > >>> > the
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > purpose
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > of
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not,
> >> > that's
> >> > > > >>> > something
> >> > > > >>> > >> we
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > can
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take
> >> Flink
> >> > > > China
> >> > > > >>> > >> > operation
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > team
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > as
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and
> >> > encouraging
> >> > > > >>> them to
> >> > > > >>> > >> join
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > related
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing
> >> list
> >> > > from
> >> > > > >>> now
> >> > > > >>> > on.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert
> Metzger
> >> <
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > [hidden email]>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations
> >> regarding
> >> > a
> >> > > > chat
> >> > > > >>> > group
> >> > > > >>> > >> > with
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > 10k
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > members!
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech
> >> scene in
> >> > > the
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Chinese-speaking
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > world
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the
> >> > > community
> >> > > > >>> grow
> >> > > > >>> > AND
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > follow
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > good
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > apache practices.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are
> >> doing
> >> > > > user
> >> > > > >>> > >> support
> >> > > > >>> > >> > via
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > Chat
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult
> >> to
> >> > > move
> >> > > > >>> people
> >> > > > >>> > >> away
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > from
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > that,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down
> >> > adoption
> >> > > of
> >> > > > >>> Flink
> >> > > > >>> > >> in
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > China.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay
> >> with
> >> > > > using
> >> > > > >>> > >> mailing
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > lists,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > or
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption?
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list
> to
> >> ask
> >> > > > >>> > questions,
> >> > > > >>> > >> but
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > people
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to
> >> use
> >> > > > mailing
> >> > > > >>> > list
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case?
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on
> mailing
> >> > > lists?
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh
> doesn't
> >> > > > support
> >> > > > >>> > >> > searching.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service
> for
> >> > > user-zh
> >> > > > >>> which
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > supports
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are
> not
> >> > > > showing
> >> > > > >>> up
> >> > > > >>> > on
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > Baidu.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to
> >> > > improve
> >> > > > >>> this.
> >> > > > >>> > >> IMO,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > is
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > not
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related
> >> > > > >>> information.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for
> >> > > > >>> technology-related
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > information?
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in
> >> China
> >> > > > >>> finding
> >> > > > >>> > help
> >> > > > >>> > >> > when
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > they
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > run
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > into problems with a system?
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Best,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Robert
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <
> >> > > > >>> [hidden email]
> >> > > > >>> > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen
> in
> >> > the
> >> > > > >>> > DingTalk.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list
> >> to
> >> > ask
> >> > > > >>> > >> questions,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > but
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > people
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to
> >> use
> >> > > > mailing
> >> > > > >>> > list
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have
> >> > > replies,
> >> > > > >>> > >> although
> >> > > > >>> > >> > in
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > hours.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - It means users can get problems
> >> solved
> >> > by
> >> > > > >>> using
> >> > > > >>> > >> mailing
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > list.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh
> >> doesn't
> >> > > > >>> support
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > searching.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service
> for
> >> > > user-zh
> >> > > > >>> which
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > supports
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are
> >> not
> >> > > > >>> showing up
> >> > > > >>> > >> on
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to
> >> > > improve
> >> > > > >>> this.
> >> > > > >>> > >> IMO,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > is
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > not
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related
> >> > > > >>> information.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Regards,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Jark
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > [1].
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> >
> >> > > > >>> > >>
> >> > > > >>> >
> >> > > > >>>
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <
> >> > > > >>> > >> [hidden email]>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert.
> >> It's
> >> > > > because
> >> > > > >>> > most
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > questions
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > are
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has
> >> close
> >> > to
> >> > > > >>> 10,000
> >> > > > >>> > >> > people
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > now.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Here're
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing,
> >> announce
> >> > > news
> >> > > > >>> and
> >> > > > >>> > >> > updates,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > broadcast
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just
> TERRIBLE
> >> > for
> >> > > > >>> > ask-answer
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > questions
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > and
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :)
> surely
> >> not
> >> > > > >>> > 10,000...)
> >> > > > >>> > >> We
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > probably
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > all
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not
> >> > really
> >> > > > >>> > >> searchable,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > topics
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > lost
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > fast,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions
> >> > without
> >> > > > >>> evening
> >> > > > >>> > >> doing
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > any
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > homework
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted
> that
> >> > group
> >> > > > >>> chat
> >> > > > >>> > and
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > haven't
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > really
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > look
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel
> the
> >> > heat
> >> > > in
> >> > > > >>> the
> >> > > > >>> > >> group
> >> > > > >>> > >> > is
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > also
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > going
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but
> it
> >> > > still
> >> > > > >>> exists
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > nowadays
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > for
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > its
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async
> >> > communication,
> >> > > > >>> topic
> >> > > > >>> > >> > focused,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > etc.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > And
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > I
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and
> >> > > ask-answer
> >> > > > >>> > should
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > happen
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > in
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > the
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't
> >> > > clarified
> >> > > > >>> what
> >> > > > >>> > >> that
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > DingTalk
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > group
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it
> >> should
> >> > > > work
> >> > > > >>> > >> together
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > with
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > our
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > user-zh
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group
> chat
> >> and
> >> > > > kind
> >> > > > >>> of
> >> > > > >>> > >> just
> >> > > > >>> > >> > let
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > it
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > drive
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > to
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time
> >> to
> >> > > > >>> reflect on
> >> > > > >>> > >> how
> >> > > > >>> > >> > we
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > should
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group
> >> chat
> >> > > > >>> should
> >> > > > >>> > >> only be
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > used
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > for
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news
> >> and
> >> > > > >>> updates,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > broadcasting
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > live
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical
> >> > > > discussions
> >> > > > >>> > >> should
> >> > > > >>> > >> > be
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > diverted
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > to
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of
> >> the
> >> > > > >>> DingTalk
> >> > > > >>> > >> group
> >> > > > >>> > >> > so
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > that
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > they
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Bowen
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert
> >> > > Metzger <
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a
> >> few
> >> > > > >>> months old
> >> > > > >>> > >> and
> >> > > > >>> > >> > I
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > wanted
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > to
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > hear
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the
> >> DingTalk
> >> > > group
> >> > > > >>> (5000
> >> > > > >>> > >> ?),
> >> > > > >>> > >> > I
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > would
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > have
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the
> mailing
> >> > list.
> >> > > > >>> But I
> >> > > > >>> > >> also
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > understand
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > that
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated
> technology
> >> > from
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > >>> > last
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > century.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per
> >> > month:
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our
> >> side
> >> > to
> >> > > > help
> >> > > > >>> > >> adoption
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > of
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > that
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > mailing
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> list?
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the
> >> mailing
> >> > > list
> >> > > > >>> > >> showing up
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > on
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Baidu
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > when
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with
> Flink?
> >> If
> >> > > not,
> >> > > > >>> does
> >> > > > >>> > it
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > makes
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > sense
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > to
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> have
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a
> >> server/domain
> >> > in
> >> > > > >>> China?
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Best,
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Robert
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM
> YuZhao
> >> > Chan
> >> > > <
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great.
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> > >
> >> > > > >>> > >> >
> >> > > > >>> > >>
> >> > > > >>> > >
> >> > > > >>> >
> >> > > > >>>
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
>