[DISCUSS] Start a [e-mail] mailing list for the Chinese-speaking community?

[Robert Metzger]

Thanks everybody for your feedback and comments.

I will now request the creation of the mailing list, and raise a PR for
updating the Flink website with the info.

On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 8:43 AM Becket Qin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> +1. Great idea!
>
> On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 12:02 AM Shaoxuan Wang <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > +1. Looking forward to it.
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 7:41 PM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for your response.
> > >
> > > You are right, I'm proposing "[hidden email]" as the mailing
> > > list's name!
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 12:37 PM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Robert,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks a lot for starting this discussion!
> > > >
> > > > +1 to a [hidden email] mailing list (you mentioned -zh in the
> > title,
> > > > but
> > > > -cn in the opening email content.
> > > > I think -zh would be better as we are establishing the tool for
> general
> > > > Chinese-speaking users).
> > > > All dev@ discussions / JIRAs should still be in a single English
> > mailing
> > > > list.
> > > >
> > > > From what I've seen in the DingTalk Flink user group, there's quite a
> > bit
> > > > of activity in forms of user questions and replies.
> > > > It would really be great if the Chinese-speaking user community can
> > > > actually have these discussions happen in the Apache mailing lists,
> > > > so that questions / discussions / replies from developers can be
> > indexed
> > > > and searchable.
> > > > Moreover, it'll give the community more insight in how active a
> > > > Chinese-speaking contributor is helping with user requests,
> > > > which in general is a form of contribution that the community always
> > > merits
> > > > a lot.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Gordon
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 12:15 PM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hey all,
> > > > >
> > > > > I would like to create a new user support mailing list called "
> > > > > [hidden email]" to cater the Chinese-speaking Flink
> > > community.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why?
> > > > > In the last year 24% of the traffic on flink.apache.org came from
> > the
> > > > US,
> > > > > 22% from China. In the last three months, China is at 30%, the US
> at
> > > 20%.
> > > > > An additional data point is that there's a Flink DingTalk group
> with
> > > more
> > > > > than 5000 members, asking Flink questions.
> > > > > I believe that knowledge about Flink should be available in public
> > > forums
> > > > > (our mailing list), indexable by search engines. If there's a huge
> > > demand
> > > > > in a Chinese language support, we as a community should provide
> these
> > > > users
> > > > > the tools they need, to grow our community and to allow them to
> > follow
> > > > the
> > > > > Apache way.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it possible?
> > > > > I believe it is, because a number of other Apache projects are
> > running
> > > > > non-English user@ mailing lists.
> > > > > Apache OpenOffice, Cocoon, OpenMeetings, CloudStack all have
> > > non-English
> > > > > lists: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/
> > > > > One thing I want to make very clear in this discussion is that all
> > > > project
> > > > > decisions, developer discussions, JIRA tickets etc. need to happen
> in
> > > > > English, as this is the primary language of the Apache Foundation
> and
> > > our
> > > > > community.
> > > > > We should also clarify this on the page listing the mailing lists.
> > > > >
> > > > > How?
> > > > > If there is consensus in this discussion thread, I would request
> the
> > > new
> > > > > mailing list next Monday.
> > > > > In case of discussions, I will start a vote on Monday or when the
> > > > > discussions have stopped.
> > > > > Then, we should put the new list on our website and start promoting
> > it
> > > > (in
> > > > > said DingTalk group and on social media).
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me know what you think about this idea :)
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Robert
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > PS: In case you are wondering what ZH stands for:
> > > > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ZH
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[jincheng sun]

+1，I like the idea very much！

Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>于2019年1月24日 周四19:15写道：

> Hey all,
>
> I would like to create a new user support mailing list called "
> [hidden email]" to cater the Chinese-speaking Flink community.
>
> Why?
> In the last year 24% of the traffic on flink.apache.org came from the US,
> 22% from China. In the last three months, China is at 30%, the US at 20%.
> An additional data point is that there's a Flink DingTalk group with more
> than 5000 members, asking Flink questions.
> I believe that knowledge about Flink should be available in public forums
> (our mailing list), indexable by search engines. If there's a huge demand
> in a Chinese language support, we as a community should provide these users
> the tools they need, to grow our community and to allow them to follow the
> Apache way.
>
> Is it possible?
> I believe it is, because a number of other Apache projects are running
> non-English user@ mailing lists.
> Apache OpenOffice, Cocoon, OpenMeetings, CloudStack all have non-English
> lists: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/
> One thing I want to make very clear in this discussion is that all project
> decisions, developer discussions, JIRA tickets etc. need to happen in
> English, as this is the primary language of the Apache Foundation and our
> community.
> We should also clarify this on the page listing the mailing lists.
>
> How?
> If there is consensus in this discussion thread, I would request the new
> mailing list next Monday.
> In case of discussions, I will start a vote on Monday or when the
> discussions have stopped.
> Then, we should put the new list on our website and start promoting it (in
> said DingTalk group and on social media).
>
> Let me know what you think about this idea :)
>
> Best,
> Robert
>
>
> PS: In case you are wondering what ZH stands for:
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ZH
>

[Ufuk Celebi-2]

I'm late to this party but big +1. Great idea! I think this will help
to better represent the actual Flink community size and increase
interaction between the English and non-English speaking community.
:-)

On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 6:02 PM jincheng sun <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> +1，I like the idea very much！
>
> Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>于2019年1月24日 周四19:15写道：
>
> > Hey all,
> >
> > I would like to create a new user support mailing list called "
> > [hidden email]" to cater the Chinese-speaking Flink community.
> >
> > Why?
> > In the last year 24% of the traffic on flink.apache.org came from the US,
> > 22% from China. In the last three months, China is at 30%, the US at 20%.
> > An additional data point is that there's a Flink DingTalk group with more
> > than 5000 members, asking Flink questions.
> > I believe that knowledge about Flink should be available in public forums
> > (our mailing list), indexable by search engines. If there's a huge demand
> > in a Chinese language support, we as a community should provide these users
> > the tools they need, to grow our community and to allow them to follow the
> > Apache way.
> >
> > Is it possible?
> > I believe it is, because a number of other Apache projects are running
> > non-English user@ mailing lists.
> > Apache OpenOffice, Cocoon, OpenMeetings, CloudStack all have non-English
> > lists: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/
> > One thing I want to make very clear in this discussion is that all project
> > decisions, developer discussions, JIRA tickets etc. need to happen in
> > English, as this is the primary language of the Apache Foundation and our
> > community.
> > We should also clarify this on the page listing the mailing lists.
> >
> > How?
> > If there is consensus in this discussion thread, I would request the new
> > mailing list next Monday.
> > In case of discussions, I will start a vote on Monday or when the
> > discussions have stopped.
> > Then, we should put the new list on our website and start promoting it (in
> > said DingTalk group and on social media).
> >
> > Let me know what you think about this idea :)
> >
> > Best,
> > Robert
> >
> >
> > PS: In case you are wondering what ZH stands for:
> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ZH
> >

[tison]

+1，sounds good

Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]> 于2019年1月29日周二 上午1:46写道：

> I'm late to this party but big +1. Great idea! I think this will help
> to better represent the actual Flink community size and increase
> interaction between the English and non-English speaking community.
> :-)
>
> On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 6:02 PM jincheng sun <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > +1，I like the idea very much！
> >
> > Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>于2019年1月24日 周四19:15写道：
> >
> > > Hey all,
> > >
> > > I would like to create a new user support mailing list called "
> > > [hidden email]" to cater the Chinese-speaking Flink
> community.
> > >
> > > Why?
> > > In the last year 24% of the traffic on flink.apache.org came from the
> US,
> > > 22% from China. In the last three months, China is at 30%, the US at
> 20%.
> > > An additional data point is that there's a Flink DingTalk group with
> more
> > > than 5000 members, asking Flink questions.
> > > I believe that knowledge about Flink should be available in public
> forums
> > > (our mailing list), indexable by search engines. If there's a huge
> demand
> > > in a Chinese language support, we as a community should provide these
> users
> > > the tools they need, to grow our community and to allow them to follow
> the
> > > Apache way.
> > >
> > > Is it possible?
> > > I believe it is, because a number of other Apache projects are running
> > > non-English user@ mailing lists.
> > > Apache OpenOffice, Cocoon, OpenMeetings, CloudStack all have
> non-English
> > > lists: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/
> > > One thing I want to make very clear in this discussion is that all
> project
> > > decisions, developer discussions, JIRA tickets etc. need to happen in
> > > English, as this is the primary language of the Apache Foundation and
> our
> > > community.
> > > We should also clarify this on the page listing the mailing lists.
> > >
> > > How?
> > > If there is consensus in this discussion thread, I would request the
> new
> > > mailing list next Monday.
> > > In case of discussions, I will start a vote on Monday or when the
> > > discussions have stopped.
> > > Then, we should put the new list on our website and start promoting it
> (in
> > > said DingTalk group and on social media).
> > >
> > > Let me know what you think about this idea :)
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Robert
> > >
> > >
> > > PS: In case you are wondering what ZH stands for:
> > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ZH
> > >
>

[Robert Metzger]

Success!
The mailing list has been created.

Send an email to "[hidden email]" to subscribe!
I've also updated the website with the list:
https://flink.apache.org/community.html

I will now also tweet about it, even though I believe it'll be more
important to advertise the list on Chinese social media platforms.


On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 1:52 AM ZILI CHEN <[hidden email]> wrote:

> +1，sounds good
>
> Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]> 于2019年1月29日周二 上午1:46写道：
>
> > I'm late to this party but big +1. Great idea! I think this will help
> > to better represent the actual Flink community size and increase
> > interaction between the English and non-English speaking community.
> > :-)
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 6:02 PM jincheng sun <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > +1，I like the idea very much！
> > >
> > > Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>于2019年1月24日 周四19:15写道：
> > >
> > > > Hey all,
> > > >
> > > > I would like to create a new user support mailing list called "
> > > > [hidden email]" to cater the Chinese-speaking Flink
> > community.
> > > >
> > > > Why?
> > > > In the last year 24% of the traffic on flink.apache.org came from
> the
> > US,
> > > > 22% from China. In the last three months, China is at 30%, the US at
> > 20%.
> > > > An additional data point is that there's a Flink DingTalk group with
> > more
> > > > than 5000 members, asking Flink questions.
> > > > I believe that knowledge about Flink should be available in public
> > forums
> > > > (our mailing list), indexable by search engines. If there's a huge
> > demand
> > > > in a Chinese language support, we as a community should provide these
> > users
> > > > the tools they need, to grow our community and to allow them to
> follow
> > the
> > > > Apache way.
> > > >
> > > > Is it possible?
> > > > I believe it is, because a number of other Apache projects are
> running
> > > > non-English user@ mailing lists.
> > > > Apache OpenOffice, Cocoon, OpenMeetings, CloudStack all have
> > non-English
> > > > lists: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/
> > > > One thing I want to make very clear in this discussion is that all
> > project
> > > > decisions, developer discussions, JIRA tickets etc. need to happen in
> > > > English, as this is the primary language of the Apache Foundation and
> > our
> > > > community.
> > > > We should also clarify this on the page listing the mailing lists.
> > > >
> > > > How?
> > > > If there is consensus in this discussion thread, I would request the
> > new
> > > > mailing list next Monday.
> > > > In case of discussions, I will start a vote on Monday or when the
> > > > discussions have stopped.
> > > > Then, we should put the new list on our website and start promoting
> it
> > (in
> > > > said DingTalk group and on social media).
> > > >
> > > > Let me know what you think about this idea :)
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Robert
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > PS: In case you are wondering what ZH stands for:
> > > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ZH
> > > >
> >
>

[Jark Wu-2]

Cheers!

Subscribed. Looking forward to the first Chinese question ;)

On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 at 17:16, Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Success!
> The mailing list has been created.
>
> Send an email to "[hidden email]" to subscribe!
> I've also updated the website with the list:
> https://flink.apache.org/community.html
>
> I will now also tweet about it, even though I believe it'll be more
> important to advertise the list on Chinese social media platforms.
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 1:52 AM ZILI CHEN <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > +1，sounds good
> >
> > Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]> 于2019年1月29日周二 上午1:46写道：
> >
> > > I'm late to this party but big +1. Great idea! I think this will help
> > > to better represent the actual Flink community size and increase
> > > interaction between the English and non-English speaking community.
> > > :-)
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 6:02 PM jincheng sun <[hidden email]
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > +1，I like the idea very much！
> > > >
> > > > Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>于2019年1月24日 周四19:15写道：
> > > >
> > > > > Hey all,
> > > > >
> > > > > I would like to create a new user support mailing list called "
> > > > > [hidden email]" to cater the Chinese-speaking Flink
> > > community.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why?
> > > > > In the last year 24% of the traffic on flink.apache.org came from
> > the
> > > US,
> > > > > 22% from China. In the last three months, China is at 30%, the US
> at
> > > 20%.
> > > > > An additional data point is that there's a Flink DingTalk group
> with
> > > more
> > > > > than 5000 members, asking Flink questions.
> > > > > I believe that knowledge about Flink should be available in public
> > > forums
> > > > > (our mailing list), indexable by search engines. If there's a huge
> > > demand
> > > > > in a Chinese language support, we as a community should provide
> these
> > > users
> > > > > the tools they need, to grow our community and to allow them to
> > follow
> > > the
> > > > > Apache way.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it possible?
> > > > > I believe it is, because a number of other Apache projects are
> > running
> > > > > non-English user@ mailing lists.
> > > > > Apache OpenOffice, Cocoon, OpenMeetings, CloudStack all have
> > > non-English
> > > > > lists: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/
> > > > > One thing I want to make very clear in this discussion is that all
> > > project
> > > > > decisions, developer discussions, JIRA tickets etc. need to happen
> in
> > > > > English, as this is the primary language of the Apache Foundation
> and
> > > our
> > > > > community.
> > > > > We should also clarify this on the page listing the mailing lists.
> > > > >
> > > > > How?
> > > > > If there is consensus in this discussion thread, I would request
> the
> > > new
> > > > > mailing list next Monday.
> > > > > In case of discussions, I will start a vote on Monday or when the
> > > > > discussions have stopped.
> > > > > Then, we should put the new list on our website and start promoting
> > it
> > > (in
> > > > > said DingTalk group and on social media).
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me know what you think about this idea :)
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Robert
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > PS: In case you are wondering what ZH stands for:
> > > > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ZH
> > > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Robert Metzger]

Hey all,

I'm now getting more and more MODERATE emails from the mailing list service
for the user-zh@ list from people trying to subscribe.
I would like to ask if any committer (who ideally speaks Chinese) is
willing to moderate the user-zh@ list.

This works as follows:
When somebody who is not subscribed to the mailing list is trying to post a
message there, the moderators receive an email like this:

> To approve:
>    [hidden email]
> <[hidden email]>To reject:
>    [hidden email]
> <[hidden email]>To give a reason
> to reject:
> %%% Start comment
> %%% End comment
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "XXXX" <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2019 16:37:19 +0800
> Subject: Sub
> Sub

This means [hidden email] has send an email to [hidden email]
without being subscribed.
Option 1 is to send an email to
[hidden email]
<[hidden email]> to accept this
message to the list. But in this case, the message does not have any
meaningful content.
So instead, what I do is, I directly send an email to [hidden email],
explaining how to subscribe to the mailing list.
It is important that people on the user list are subscribed before posting,
so that they receive the answers to their questions.

In rare cases people send emails that moderators can just accept (for
example when a well-known subscriber to the list is accidentally posting
from a different address).

Which Flink committer is willing to help out here?

Best,
Robert



On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 10:29 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Cheers!
>
> Subscribed. Looking forward to the first Chinese question ;)
>
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 at 17:16, Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Success!
> > The mailing list has been created.
> >
> > Send an email to "[hidden email]" to subscribe!
> > I've also updated the website with the list:
> > https://flink.apache.org/community.html
> >
> > I will now also tweet about it, even though I believe it'll be more
> > important to advertise the list on Chinese social media platforms.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 1:52 AM ZILI CHEN <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > +1，sounds good
> > >
> > > Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]> 于2019年1月29日周二 上午1:46写道：
> > >
> > > > I'm late to this party but big +1. Great idea! I think this will help
> > > > to better represent the actual Flink community size and increase
> > > > interaction between the English and non-English speaking community.
> > > > :-)
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 6:02 PM jincheng sun <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > +1，I like the idea very much！
> > > > >
> > > > > Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>于2019年1月24日 周四19:15写道：
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hey all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would like to create a new user support mailing list called "
> > > > > > [hidden email]" to cater the Chinese-speaking Flink
> > > > community.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why?
> > > > > > In the last year 24% of the traffic on flink.apache.org came
> from
> > > the
> > > > US,
> > > > > > 22% from China. In the last three months, China is at 30%, the US
> > at
> > > > 20%.
> > > > > > An additional data point is that there's a Flink DingTalk group
> > with
> > > > more
> > > > > > than 5000 members, asking Flink questions.
> > > > > > I believe that knowledge about Flink should be available in
> public
> > > > forums
> > > > > > (our mailing list), indexable by search engines. If there's a
> huge
> > > > demand
> > > > > > in a Chinese language support, we as a community should provide
> > these
> > > > users
> > > > > > the tools they need, to grow our community and to allow them to
> > > follow
> > > > the
> > > > > > Apache way.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is it possible?
> > > > > > I believe it is, because a number of other Apache projects are
> > > running
> > > > > > non-English user@ mailing lists.
> > > > > > Apache OpenOffice, Cocoon, OpenMeetings, CloudStack all have
> > > > non-English
> > > > > > lists: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/
> > > > > > One thing I want to make very clear in this discussion is that
> all
> > > > project
> > > > > > decisions, developer discussions, JIRA tickets etc. need to
> happen
> > in
> > > > > > English, as this is the primary language of the Apache Foundation
> > and
> > > > our
> > > > > > community.
> > > > > > We should also clarify this on the page listing the mailing
> lists.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How?
> > > > > > If there is consensus in this discussion thread, I would request
> > the
> > > > new
> > > > > > mailing list next Monday.
> > > > > > In case of discussions, I will start a vote on Monday or when the
> > > > > > discussions have stopped.
> > > > > > Then, we should put the new list on our website and start
> promoting
> > > it
> > > > (in
> > > > > > said DingTalk group and on social media).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let me know what you think about this idea :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > Robert
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PS: In case you are wondering what ZH stands for:
> > > > > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ZH
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai]

Hi Robert,

I'll be willing to help with moderating the user-zh@ list.

Cheers,
Gordon

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 5:05 PM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> I'm now getting more and more MODERATE emails from the mailing list service
> for the user-zh@ list from people trying to subscribe.
> I would like to ask if any committer (who ideally speaks Chinese) is
> willing to moderate the user-zh@ list.
>
> This works as follows:
> When somebody who is not subscribed to the mailing list is trying to post a
> message there, the moderators receive an email like this:
>
>
> > To approve:
> >    [hidden email]
> > <[hidden email]>To reject:
> >    [hidden email]
> > <[hidden email]>To give a reason
> > to reject:
> > %%% Start comment
> > %%% End comment
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: "XXXX" <[hidden email]>
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Cc:
> > Bcc:
> > Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2019 16:37:19 +0800
> > Subject: Sub
> > Sub
>
>
> This means [hidden email] has send an email to [hidden email]
> without being subscribed.
> Option 1 is to send an email to
> [hidden email]
> <[hidden email]> to accept this
> message to the list. But in this case, the message does not have any
> meaningful content.
> So instead, what I do is, I directly send an email to [hidden email],
> explaining how to subscribe to the mailing list.
> It is important that people on the user list are subscribed before posting,
> so that they receive the answers to their questions.
>
> In rare cases people send emails that moderators can just accept (for
> example when a well-known subscriber to the list is accidentally posting
> from a different address).
>
> Which Flink committer is willing to help out here?
>
> Best,
> Robert
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 10:29 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Subscribed. Looking forward to the first Chinese question ;)
> >
> > On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 at 17:16, Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Success!
> > > The mailing list has been created.
> > >
> > > Send an email to "[hidden email]" to subscribe!
> > > I've also updated the website with the list:
> > > https://flink.apache.org/community.html
> > >
> > > I will now also tweet about it, even though I believe it'll be more
> > > important to advertise the list on Chinese social media platforms.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 1:52 AM ZILI CHEN <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1，sounds good
> > > >
> > > > Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]> 于2019年1月29日周二 上午1:46写道：
> > > >
> > > > > I'm late to this party but big +1. Great idea! I think this will
> help
> > > > > to better represent the actual Flink community size and increase
> > > > > interaction between the English and non-English speaking community.
> > > > > :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 6:02 PM jincheng sun <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > +1，I like the idea very much！
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>于2019年1月24日 周四19:15写道：
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hey all,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would like to create a new user support mailing list called "
> > > > > > > [hidden email]" to cater the Chinese-speaking Flink
> > > > > community.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why?
> > > > > > > In the last year 24% of the traffic on flink.apache.org came
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > US,
> > > > > > > 22% from China. In the last three months, China is at 30%, the
> US
> > > at
> > > > > 20%.
> > > > > > > An additional data point is that there's a Flink DingTalk group
> > > with
> > > > > more
> > > > > > > than 5000 members, asking Flink questions.
> > > > > > > I believe that knowledge about Flink should be available in
> > public
> > > > > forums
> > > > > > > (our mailing list), indexable by search engines. If there's a
> > huge
> > > > > demand
> > > > > > > in a Chinese language support, we as a community should provide
> > > these
> > > > > users
> > > > > > > the tools they need, to grow our community and to allow them to
> > > > follow
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > Apache way.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is it possible?
> > > > > > > I believe it is, because a number of other Apache projects are
> > > > running
> > > > > > > non-English user@ mailing lists.
> > > > > > > Apache OpenOffice, Cocoon, OpenMeetings, CloudStack all have
> > > > > non-English
> > > > > > > lists: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/
> > > > > > > One thing I want to make very clear in this discussion is that
> > all
> > > > > project
> > > > > > > decisions, developer discussions, JIRA tickets etc. need to
> > happen
> > > in
> > > > > > > English, as this is the primary language of the Apache
> Foundation
> > > and
> > > > > our
> > > > > > > community.
> > > > > > > We should also clarify this on the page listing the mailing
> > lists.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How?
> > > > > > > If there is consensus in this discussion thread, I would
> request
> > > the
> > > > > new
> > > > > > > mailing list next Monday.
> > > > > > > In case of discussions, I will start a vote on Monday or when
> the
> > > > > > > discussions have stopped.
> > > > > > > Then, we should put the new list on our website and start
> > promoting
> > > > it
> > > > > (in
> > > > > > > said DingTalk group and on social media).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let me know what you think about this idea :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > Robert
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > PS: In case you are wondering what ZH stands for:
> > > > > > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ZH
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Robert Metzger]

Awesome, thanks a lot Gordon!
I've asked Infra to add you as a moderator:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-17865

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 11:15 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> I'll be willing to help with moderating the user-zh@ list.
>
> Cheers,
> Gordon
>
> On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 5:05 PM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hey all,
> >
> > I'm now getting more and more MODERATE emails from the mailing list
> service
> > for the user-zh@ list from people trying to subscribe.
> > I would like to ask if any committer (who ideally speaks Chinese) is
> > willing to moderate the user-zh@ list.
> >
> > This works as follows:
> > When somebody who is not subscribed to the mailing list is trying to
> post a
> > message there, the moderators receive an email like this:
> >
> >
> > > To approve:
> > >    [hidden email]
> > > <[hidden email]>To reject:
> > >    [hidden email]
> > > <[hidden email]>To give a
> reason
> > > to reject:
> > > %%% Start comment
> > > %%% End comment
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > From: "XXXX" <[hidden email]>
> > > To: [hidden email]
> > > Cc:
> > > Bcc:
> > > Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2019 16:37:19 +0800
> > > Subject: Sub
> > > Sub
> >
> >
> > This means [hidden email] has send an email to [hidden email]
> > without being subscribed.
> > Option 1 is to send an email to
> > [hidden email]
> > <[hidden email]> to accept this
> > message to the list. But in this case, the message does not have any
> > meaningful content.
> > So instead, what I do is, I directly send an email to [hidden email],
> > explaining how to subscribe to the mailing list.
> > It is important that people on the user list are subscribed before
> posting,
> > so that they receive the answers to their questions.
> >
> > In rare cases people send emails that moderators can just accept (for
> > example when a well-known subscriber to the list is accidentally posting
> > from a different address).
> >
> > Which Flink committer is willing to help out here?
> >
> > Best,
> > Robert
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 10:29 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Cheers!
> > >
> > > Subscribed. Looking forward to the first Chinese question ;)
> > >
> > > On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 at 17:16, Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Success!
> > > > The mailing list has been created.
> > > >
> > > > Send an email to "[hidden email]" to subscribe!
> > > > I've also updated the website with the list:
> > > > https://flink.apache.org/community.html
> > > >
> > > > I will now also tweet about it, even though I believe it'll be more
> > > > important to advertise the list on Chinese social media platforms.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 1:52 AM ZILI CHEN <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1，sounds good
> > > > >
> > > > > Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]> 于2019年1月29日周二 上午1:46写道：
> > > > >
> > > > > > I'm late to this party but big +1. Great idea! I think this will
> > help
> > > > > > to better represent the actual Flink community size and increase
> > > > > > interaction between the English and non-English speaking
> community.
> > > > > > :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 6:02 PM jincheng sun <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1，I like the idea very much！
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>于2019年1月24日 周四19:15写道：
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hey all,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would like to create a new user support mailing list
> called "
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]" to cater the Chinese-speaking
> Flink
> > > > > > community.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Why?
> > > > > > > > In the last year 24% of the traffic on flink.apache.org came
> > > from
> > > > > the
> > > > > > US,
> > > > > > > > 22% from China. In the last three months, China is at 30%,
> the
> > US
> > > > at
> > > > > > 20%.
> > > > > > > > An additional data point is that there's a Flink DingTalk
> group
> > > > with
> > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > than 5000 members, asking Flink questions.
> > > > > > > > I believe that knowledge about Flink should be available in
> > > public
> > > > > > forums
> > > > > > > > (our mailing list), indexable by search engines. If there's a
> > > huge
> > > > > > demand
> > > > > > > > in a Chinese language support, we as a community should
> provide
> > > > these
> > > > > > users
> > > > > > > > the tools they need, to grow our community and to allow them
> to
> > > > > follow
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > Apache way.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is it possible?
> > > > > > > > I believe it is, because a number of other Apache projects
> are
> > > > > running
> > > > > > > > non-English user@ mailing lists.
> > > > > > > > Apache OpenOffice, Cocoon, OpenMeetings, CloudStack all have
> > > > > > non-English
> > > > > > > > lists: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/
> > > > > > > > One thing I want to make very clear in this discussion is
> that
> > > all
> > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > decisions, developer discussions, JIRA tickets etc. need to
> > > happen
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > English, as this is the primary language of the Apache
> > Foundation
> > > > and
> > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > community.
> > > > > > > > We should also clarify this on the page listing the mailing
> > > lists.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How?
> > > > > > > > If there is consensus in this discussion thread, I would
> > request
> > > > the
> > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > mailing list next Monday.
> > > > > > > > In case of discussions, I will start a vote on Monday or when
> > the
> > > > > > > > discussions have stopped.
> > > > > > > > Then, we should put the new list on our website and start
> > > promoting
> > > > > it
> > > > > > (in
> > > > > > > > said DingTalk group and on social media).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Let me know what you think about this idea :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > Robert
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > PS: In case you are wondering what ZH stands for:
> > > > > > > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ZH
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Danny Chan]

That's great.

[Robert Metzger]

Hey all,

the [hidden email] is now a few months old and I wanted to hear
how things are going.

From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 ?), I would have
expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also understand that
mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last century.

These are the numbers of messages per month:
Feb: 72
Mar: 170
Apr: 119
May: 62
Jun: 10

Is there anything we can do from our side to help adoption of that mailing
list?
For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing up on Baidu when
looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it makes sense to have
a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?

Best,
Robert



On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That's great.
>

[bowen.li]

I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most questions are asked
in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000 people now. Here're my
observations and thoughts.

Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and updates, broadcast
live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer questions and
discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...) We probably all
experienced the problems - content not really searchable, topics lost fast,
too much noise, people post questions without evening doing any homework
first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and haven't really look
at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the group is also going
down because of the problems.

Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists nowadays for its own
reasons - searchable, async communication, topic focused, etc. And I
believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should happen in the
mailing list, not in that group.

IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what that DingTalk group
should be really used for, and how it should work together with our user-zh
mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of just let it drive to
its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on how we should
position that group and mailing list.

As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should only be used for
marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates, broadcasting live
streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions should be diverted to
user-zh mailing list.

I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk group so that they can
share their thoughts.

Bowen

On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> the [hidden email] is now a few months old and I wanted to hear
> how things are going.
>
> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 ?), I would have
> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also understand that
> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last century.
>
> These are the numbers of messages per month:
> Feb: 72
> Mar: 170
> Apr: 119
> May: 62
> Jun: 10
>
> Is there anything we can do from our side to help adoption of that mailing
> list?
> For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing up on Baidu when
> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it makes sense to have
> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?
>
> Best,
> Robert
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > That's great.
> >
>

[Jark Wu-2]

Thanks Bowen and Robert,

Here're my observations and thoughts.

1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk.
2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people
still prefer DingTalk.
    - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list frequently.
3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, although in hours.
    - It means users can get problems solved by using mailing list.
4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
    -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching
itself.
5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on Baidu.
    - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, Baidu is not
good at searching for technology-related information.



Regards,
Jark




[1].
https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser


On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most questions are
> asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000 people now. Here're
> my observations and thoughts.
>
> Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and updates, broadcast
> live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer questions and
> discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...) We probably all
> experienced the problems - content not really searchable, topics lost fast,
> too much noise, people post questions without evening doing any homework
> first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and haven't really look
> at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the group is also going
> down because of the problems.
>
> Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists nowadays for its
> own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic focused, etc. And I
> believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should happen in the
> mailing list, not in that group.
>
> IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what that DingTalk group
> should be really used for, and how it should work together with our user-zh
> mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of just let it drive to
> its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on how we should
> position that group and mailing list.
>
> As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should only be used for
> marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates, broadcasting live
> streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions should be diverted to
> user-zh mailing list.
>
> I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk group so that they
> can share their thoughts.
>
> Bowen
>
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> the [hidden email] is now a few months old and I wanted to hear
>> how things are going.
>>
>> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 ?), I would have
>> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also understand that
>> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last century.
>>
>> These are the numbers of messages per month:
>> Feb: 72
>> Mar: 170
>> Apr: 119
>> May: 62
>> Jun: 10
>>
>> Is there anything we can do from our side to help adoption of that mailing
>> list?
>> For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing up on Baidu when
>> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it makes sense to
>> have
>> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?
>>
>> Best,
>> Robert
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > That's great.
>> >
>>
>

[Robert Metzger]

Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat group with 10k
members!

I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the Chinese-speaking world
works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow good
apache practices.
If most other projects and communities are doing user support via Chat
groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people away from that,
or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink in China.
Do you think that people are generally okay with using mailing lists, or
will it hinder adoption?

2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people
> still prefer DingTalk.
>     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list frequently.


Do we know why that's the case?
Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists?


4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
>     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching
> itself.


Great idea! Do you want to set it up?


5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on Baidu.
>     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, Baidu is not
> good at searching for technology-related information.


What is the primary search engine for technology-related information?
Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding help when they run
into problems with a system?


Best,
Robert


On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks Bowen and Robert,
>
> Here're my observations and thoughts.
>
> 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk.
> 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people
> still prefer DingTalk.
>     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list frequently.
> 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, although in hours.
>     - It means users can get problems solved by using mailing list.
> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
>     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching
> itself.
> 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on Baidu.
>     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, Baidu is not
> good at searching for technology-related information.
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Jark
>
>
>
>
> [1].
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
>
>
> On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most questions are
> > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000 people now. Here're
> > my observations and thoughts.
> >
> > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and updates, broadcast
> > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer questions and
> > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...) We probably all
> > experienced the problems - content not really searchable, topics lost
> fast,
> > too much noise, people post questions without evening doing any homework
> > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and haven't really
> look
> > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the group is also going
> > down because of the problems.
> >
> > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists nowadays for its
> > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic focused, etc. And I
> > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should happen in the
> > mailing list, not in that group.
> >
> > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what that DingTalk group
> > should be really used for, and how it should work together with our
> user-zh
> > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of just let it drive to
> > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on how we should
> > position that group and mailing list.
> >
> > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should only be used for
> > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates, broadcasting live
> > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions should be diverted to
> > user-zh mailing list.
> >
> > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk group so that they
> > can share their thoughts.
> >
> > Bowen
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hey all,
> >>
> >> the [hidden email] is now a few months old and I wanted to
> hear
> >> how things are going.
> >>
> >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 ?), I would have
> >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also understand that
> >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last century.
> >>
> >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
> >> Feb: 72
> >> Mar: 170
> >> Apr: 119
> >> May: 62
> >> Jun: 10
> >>
> >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help adoption of that
> mailing
> >> list?
> >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing up on Baidu when
> >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it makes sense to
> >> have
> >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Robert
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > That's great.
> >> >
> >>
> >
>

[bowen.li]

I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation team has done a
PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion is not about
discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high growth pain IMHO.

>>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use
mailing list frequently.
> Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more on
mailing lists?
- They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with lower cost than
emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the case too. The
quality of communication and question also goes down with it though. When I
last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were typically a log
screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many of them never
got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may have changed
now, I'm sure.

> Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow good apache
practices.
- Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and with Flink China
operation team".

I think maybe the root cause of the original question on user-zh's low
activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation team as part of
our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on ideas and
execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are all **devs**
who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the main question
channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team** voted or
expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them the purpose of
user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's something we can
improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China operation team as
part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to join related
discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now on.


On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat group with 10k
> members!
>
> I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the Chinese-speaking world
> works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow good
> apache practices.
> If most other projects and communities are doing user support via Chat
> groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people away from that,
> or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink in China.
> Do you think that people are generally okay with using mailing lists, or
> will it hinder adoption?
>
> 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people
> > still prefer DingTalk.
> >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list frequently.
>
>
> Do we know why that's the case?
> Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists?
>
>
> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
> >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports
> searching
> > itself.
>
>
> Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
>
>
> 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on Baidu.
> >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, Baidu is not
> > good at searching for technology-related information.
>
>
> What is the primary search engine for technology-related information?
> Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding help when they run
> into problems with a system?
>
>
> Best,
> Robert
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> >
> > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> >
> > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk.
> > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people
> > still prefer DingTalk.
> >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list frequently.
> > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, although in hours.
> >     - It means users can get problems solved by using mailing list.
> > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
> >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports
> searching
> > itself.
> > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on Baidu.
> >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, Baidu is not
> > good at searching for technology-related information.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Jark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [1].
> >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most questions are
> > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000 people now.
> Here're
> > > my observations and thoughts.
> > >
> > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and updates, broadcast
> > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer questions and
> > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...) We probably all
> > > experienced the problems - content not really searchable, topics lost
> > fast,
> > > too much noise, people post questions without evening doing any
> homework
> > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and haven't really
> > look
> > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the group is also
> going
> > > down because of the problems.
> > >
> > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists nowadays for its
> > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic focused, etc. And
> I
> > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should happen in the
> > > mailing list, not in that group.
> > >
> > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what that DingTalk
> group
> > > should be really used for, and how it should work together with our
> > user-zh
> > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of just let it drive
> to
> > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on how we should
> > > position that group and mailing list.
> > >
> > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should only be used for
> > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates, broadcasting live
> > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions should be diverted
> to
> > > user-zh mailing list.
> > >
> > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk group so that they
> > > can share their thoughts.
> > >
> > > Bowen
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hey all,
> > >>
> > >> the [hidden email] is now a few months old and I wanted to
> > hear
> > >> how things are going.
> > >>
> > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 ?), I would have
> > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also understand
> that
> > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last century.
> > >>
> > >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
> > >> Feb: 72
> > >> Mar: 170
> > >> Apr: 119
> > >> May: 62
> > >> Jun: 10
> > >>
> > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help adoption of that
> > mailing
> > >> list?
> > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing up on Baidu
> when
> > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it makes sense to
> > >> have
> > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?
> > >>
> > >> Best,
> > >> Robert
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <[hidden email]>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > That's great.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> >
>

[Hequn Cheng]

Hi,

Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark for your nice
thoughts.

The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason is that a
lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a lot of people
who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group. Even though, for
some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in the DingTalk
group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group. For these
problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.

There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming ruined. In
addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I think we can
initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such as:

1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more convenient and
fast.
2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list.
3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list.
4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing list
5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user mailing list
6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
7. other reasons.

I will follow this survey and then update it here.

Best, Hequn


On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation team has done a
> PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion is not about
> discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high growth pain IMHO.
>
> >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use
> mailing list frequently.
> > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more on
> mailing lists?
> - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with lower cost than
> emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the case too. The
> quality of communication and question also goes down with it though. When I
> last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were typically a log
> screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many of them never
> got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may have changed
> now, I'm sure.
>
> > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow good apache
> practices.
> - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and with Flink China
> operation team".
>
> I think maybe the root cause of the original question on user-zh's low
> activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation team as part of
> our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on ideas and
> execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are all **devs**
> who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the main question
> channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team** voted or
> expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them the purpose of
> user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's something we can
> improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China operation team as
> part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to join related
> discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now on.
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat group with 10k
> > members!
> >
> > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the Chinese-speaking
> world
> > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow good
> > apache practices.
> > If most other projects and communities are doing user support via Chat
> > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people away from
> that,
> > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink in China.
> > Do you think that people are generally okay with using mailing lists, or
> > will it hinder adoption?
> >
> > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people
> > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list frequently.
> >
> >
> > Do we know why that's the case?
> > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists?
> >
> >
> > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
> > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports
> > searching
> > > itself.
> >
> >
> > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> >
> >
> > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on Baidu.
> > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, Baidu is
> not
> > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> >
> >
> > What is the primary search engine for technology-related information?
> > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding help when they
> run
> > into problems with a system?
> >
> >
> > Best,
> > Robert
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> > >
> > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> > >
> > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk.
> > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people
> > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list frequently.
> > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, although in hours.
> > >     - It means users can get problems solved by using mailing list.
> > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
> > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports
> > searching
> > > itself.
> > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on Baidu.
> > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, Baidu is
> not
> > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Jark
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [1].
> > >
> >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most questions are
> > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000 people now.
> > Here're
> > > > my observations and thoughts.
> > > >
> > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and updates,
> broadcast
> > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer questions
> and
> > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...) We probably
> all
> > > > experienced the problems - content not really searchable, topics lost
> > > fast,
> > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening doing any
> > homework
> > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and haven't
> really
> > > look
> > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the group is also
> > going
> > > > down because of the problems.
> > > >
> > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists nowadays for
> its
> > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic focused, etc.
> And
> > I
> > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should happen in the
> > > > mailing list, not in that group.
> > > >
> > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what that DingTalk
> > group
> > > > should be really used for, and how it should work together with our
> > > user-zh
> > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of just let it
> drive
> > to
> > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on how we should
> > > > position that group and mailing list.
> > > >
> > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should only be used for
> > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates, broadcasting live
> > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions should be diverted
> > to
> > > > user-zh mailing list.
> > > >
> > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk group so that
> they
> > > > can share their thoughts.
> > > >
> > > > Bowen
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hey all,
> > > >>
> > > >> the [hidden email] is now a few months old and I wanted
> to
> > > hear
> > > >> how things are going.
> > > >>
> > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 ?), I would
> have
> > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also understand
> > that
> > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last century.
> > > >>
> > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
> > > >> Feb: 72
> > > >> Mar: 170
> > > >> Apr: 119
> > > >> May: 62
> > > >> Jun: 10
> > > >>
> > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help adoption of that
> > > mailing
> > > >> list?
> > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing up on Baidu
> > when
> > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it makes sense
> to
> > > >> have
> > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?
> > > >>
> > > >> Best,
> > > >> Robert
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <[hidden email]>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > That's great.
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Jark Wu-2]

>>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people
still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use mailing list
frequently.
> Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more on
mailing lists?
- Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several times, when
someone asked questions in group, I told them please use user-zh ML.
But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you help answer the
question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the question in group
again.
- Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is growing too
fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number grows from 5,000 to 10,000
in the past months.

>> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.  We can
provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching itself.
> Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
- Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link:
http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
  It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help.

> What is the primary search engine for technology-related information?
- I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu for most
technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
  Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on this.

A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a better
understanding about what's the root reason, what do users need.

Best,
Jark


On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark for your nice
> thoughts.
>
> The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason is that a
> lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a lot of people
> who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group. Even though, for
> some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in the DingTalk
> group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group. For these
> problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.
>
> There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming ruined. In
> addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I think we can
> initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such as:
>
> 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more convenient and
> fast.
> 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list.
> 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list.
> 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing list
> 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user mailing list
> 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
> 7. other reasons.
>
> I will follow this survey and then update it here.
>
> Best, Hequn
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation team has done
> a
> > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion is not about
> > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high growth pain
> IMHO.
> >
> > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use
> > mailing list frequently.
> > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more on
> > mailing lists?
> > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with lower cost
> than
> > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the case too.
> The
> > quality of communication and question also goes down with it though.
> When I
> > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were typically a log
> > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many of them never
> > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may have changed
> > now, I'm sure.
> >
> > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow good
> apache
> > practices.
> > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and with Flink
> China
> > operation team".
> >
> > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on user-zh's low
> > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation team as part
> of
> > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on ideas and
> > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are all **devs**
> > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the main
> question
> > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team** voted or
> > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them the purpose of
> > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's something we can
> > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China operation team
> as
> > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to join related
> > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now on.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat group with 10k
> > > members!
> > >
> > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the Chinese-speaking
> > world
> > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow
> good
> > > apache practices.
> > > If most other projects and communities are doing user support via Chat
> > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people away from
> > that,
> > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink in China.
> > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using mailing lists,
> or
> > > will it hinder adoption?
> > >
> > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people
> > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list frequently.
> > >
> > >
> > > Do we know why that's the case?
> > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists?
> > >
> > >
> > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
> > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports
> > > searching
> > > > itself.
> > >
> > >
> > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > >
> > >
> > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on Baidu.
> > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, Baidu is
> > not
> > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > >
> > >
> > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related information?
> > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding help when they
> > run
> > > into problems with a system?
> > >
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Robert
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> > > >
> > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> > > >
> > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk.
> > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> people
> > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list frequently.
> > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, although in hours.
> > > >     - It means users can get problems solved by using mailing list.
> > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
> > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports
> > > searching
> > > > itself.
> > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on Baidu.
> > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, Baidu is
> > not
> > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Jark
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [1].
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most questions
> are
> > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000 people now.
> > > Here're
> > > > > my observations and thoughts.
> > > > >
> > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and updates,
> > broadcast
> > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer questions
> > and
> > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...) We probably
> > all
> > > > > experienced the problems - content not really searchable, topics
> lost
> > > > fast,
> > > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening doing any
> > > homework
> > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and haven't
> > really
> > > > look
> > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the group is also
> > > going
> > > > > down because of the problems.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists nowadays for
> > its
> > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic focused, etc.
> > And
> > > I
> > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should happen in
> the
> > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
> > > > >
> > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what that DingTalk
> > > group
> > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work together with our
> > > > user-zh
> > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of just let it
> > drive
> > > to
> > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on how we should
> > > > > position that group and mailing list.
> > > > >
> > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should only be used
> for
> > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates, broadcasting
> live
> > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions should be
> diverted
> > > to
> > > > > user-zh mailing list.
> > > > >
> > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk group so that
> > they
> > > > > can share their thoughts.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bowen
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Hey all,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a few months old and I wanted
> > to
> > > > hear
> > > > >> how things are going.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 ?), I would
> > have
> > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also
> understand
> > > that
> > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last century.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
> > > > >> Feb: 72
> > > > >> Mar: 170
> > > > >> Apr: 119
> > > > >> May: 62
> > > > >> Jun: 10
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help adoption of that
> > > > mailing
> > > > >> list?
> > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing up on
> Baidu
> > > when
> > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it makes
> sense
> > to
> > > > >> have
> > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Best,
> > > > >> Robert
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > That's great.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai]

Hi all,

Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as a moderator
of the user-zh@ mailing list:

- About at least once every day, there would be someone trying to
incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, and not
user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can do in
instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in subscribing to
the Apache mailing list.

- It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email domains, for
example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked. This would
block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing list since they
can't complete the subscribe process.
I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email conversations
from the mailing list either.

Best,
Gordon

On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people
> still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use mailing list
> frequently.
> > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more on
> mailing lists?
> - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several times, when
> someone asked questions in group, I told them please use user-zh ML.
> But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you help answer the
> question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the question in group
> again.
> - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is growing too
> fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number grows from 5,000 to 10,000
> in the past months.
>
> >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.  We can
> provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching itself.
> > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link:
> http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
>   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help.
>
> > What is the primary search engine for technology-related information?
> - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu for most
> technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
>   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on this.
>
> A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a better
> understanding about what's the root reason, what do users need.
>
> Best,
> Jark
>
>
> On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark for your
> nice
> > thoughts.
> >
> > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason is that a
> > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a lot of
> people
> > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group. Even though,
> for
> > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in the DingTalk
> > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group. For these
> > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.
> >
> > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming ruined. In
> > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I think we
> can
> > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such as:
> >
> > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more convenient and
> > fast.
> > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list.
> > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list.
> > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing list
> > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user mailing list
> > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
> > 7. other reasons.
> >
> > I will follow this survey and then update it here.
> >
> > Best, Hequn
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation team has
> done
> > a
> > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion is not about
> > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high growth pain
> > IMHO.
> > >
> > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use
> > > mailing list frequently.
> > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more on
> > > mailing lists?
> > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with lower cost
> > than
> > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the case too.
> > The
> > > quality of communication and question also goes down with it though.
> > When I
> > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were typically a log
> > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many of them
> never
> > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may have changed
> > > now, I'm sure.
> > >
> > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow good
> > apache
> > > practices.
> > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and with Flink
> > China
> > > operation team".
> > >
> > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on user-zh's low
> > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation team as part
> > of
> > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on ideas and
> > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are all
> **devs**
> > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the main
> > question
> > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team** voted or
> > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them the purpose
> of
> > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's something we can
> > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China operation team
> > as
> > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to join
> related
> > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now on.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat group with 10k
> > > > members!
> > > >
> > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the Chinese-speaking
> > > world
> > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow
> > good
> > > > apache practices.
> > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user support via
> Chat
> > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people away from
> > > that,
> > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink in China.
> > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using mailing lists,
> > or
> > > > will it hinder adoption?
> > > >
> > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> people
> > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list
> frequently.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Do we know why that's the case?
> > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
> > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports
> > > > searching
> > > > > itself.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on Baidu.
> > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, Baidu
> is
> > > not
> > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related information?
> > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding help when
> they
> > > run
> > > > into problems with a system?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Robert
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> > > > >
> > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk.
> > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> > people
> > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list
> frequently.
> > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, although in
> hours.
> > > > >     - It means users can get problems solved by using mailing list.
> > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
> > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports
> > > > searching
> > > > > itself.
> > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on Baidu.
> > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, Baidu
> is
> > > not
> > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Jark
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [1].
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most questions
> > are
> > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000 people now.
> > > > Here're
> > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and updates,
> > > broadcast
> > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer
> questions
> > > and
> > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...) We
> probably
> > > all
> > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really searchable, topics
> > lost
> > > > > fast,
> > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening doing any
> > > > homework
> > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and haven't
> > > really
> > > > > look
> > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the group is
> also
> > > > going
> > > > > > down because of the problems.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists nowadays
> for
> > > its
> > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic focused,
> etc.
> > > And
> > > > I
> > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should happen in
> > the
> > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what that
> DingTalk
> > > > group
> > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work together with
> our
> > > > > user-zh
> > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of just let it
> > > drive
> > > > to
> > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on how we
> should
> > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should only be used
> > for
> > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates, broadcasting
> > live
> > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions should be
> > diverted
> > > > to
> > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk group so
> that
> > > they
> > > > > > can share their thoughts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bowen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Hey all,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a few months old and I
> wanted
> > > to
> > > > > hear
> > > > > >> how things are going.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 ?), I
> would
> > > have
> > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also
> > understand
> > > > that
> > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last century.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
> > > > > >> Feb: 72
> > > > > >> Mar: 170
> > > > > >> Apr: 119
> > > > > >> May: 62
> > > > > >> Jun: 10
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help adoption of
> that
> > > > > mailing
> > > > > >> list?
> > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing up on
> > Baidu
> > > > when
> > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it makes
> > sense
> > > to
> > > > > >> have
> > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Best,
> > > > > >> Robert
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > That's great.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Hequn Cheng]

Hi Gordon,

Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information!
As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of people told me
that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I think your
information gives a good answer!

- User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of `user-zh-subscribe@`.
The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to subscribe using
`user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize more about it
not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`.
Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the users if they
send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing `user-zh-subscribe@`? This may
also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list.

- Network problem.
This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now, I told one
guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows everything becomes
normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we can do is
try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use Gmail in
preference to qq.com, etc.

BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this week. I want
to let more people join in the survey.

Best, Hequn


On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as a moderator
> of the user-zh@ mailing list:
>
> - About at least once every day, there would be someone trying to
> incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, and not
> user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can do in
> instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in subscribing to
> the Apache mailing list.
>
> - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email domains, for
> example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked. This would
> block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing list since they
> can't complete the subscribe process.
> I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email conversations
> from the mailing list either.
>
> Best,
> Gordon
>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people
> > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use mailing
> list
> > frequently.
> > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more on
> > mailing lists?
> > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several times, when
> > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use user-zh ML.
> > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you help answer
> the
> > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the question in
> group
> > again.
> > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is growing too
> > fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number grows from 5,000 to
> 10,000
> > in the past months.
> >
> > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.  We
> can
> > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching itself.
> > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link:
> > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
> >   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help.
> >
> > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related information?
> > - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu for most
> > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
> >   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on this.
> >
> > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a better
> > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users need.
> >
> > Best,
> > Jark
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark for your
> > nice
> > > thoughts.
> > >
> > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason is that
> a
> > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a lot of
> > people
> > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group. Even though,
> > for
> > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in the
> DingTalk
> > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group. For
> these
> > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.
> > >
> > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming ruined. In
> > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I think we
> > can
> > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such as:
> > >
> > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more convenient
> and
> > > fast.
> > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list.
> > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list.
> > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing list
> > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user mailing list
> > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
> > > 7. other reasons.
> > >
> > > I will follow this survey and then update it here.
> > >
> > > Best, Hequn
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation team has
> > done
> > > a
> > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion is not
> about
> > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high growth pain
> > > IMHO.
> > > >
> > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use
> > > > mailing list frequently.
> > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more
> on
> > > > mailing lists?
> > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with lower
> cost
> > > than
> > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the case
> too.
> > > The
> > > > quality of communication and question also goes down with it though.
> > > When I
> > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were typically a
> log
> > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many of them
> > never
> > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may have
> changed
> > > > now, I'm sure.
> > > >
> > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow good
> > > apache
> > > > practices.
> > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and with Flink
> > > China
> > > > operation team".
> > > >
> > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on user-zh's
> low
> > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation team as
> part
> > > of
> > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on ideas and
> > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are all
> > **devs**
> > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the main
> > > question
> > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team** voted or
> > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them the
> purpose
> > of
> > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's something we can
> > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China operation
> team
> > > as
> > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to join
> > related
> > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now on.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat group with
> 10k
> > > > > members!
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the
> Chinese-speaking
> > > > world
> > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow
> > > good
> > > > > apache practices.
> > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user support via
> > Chat
> > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people away
> from
> > > > that,
> > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink in
> China.
> > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using mailing
> lists,
> > > or
> > > > > will it hinder adoption?
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> > people
> > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list
> > frequently.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Do we know why that's the case?
> > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
> > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports
> > > > > searching
> > > > > > itself.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on Baidu.
> > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO,
> Baidu
> > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
> information?
> > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding help when
> > they
> > > > run
> > > > > into problems with a system?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Robert
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk.
> > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> > > people
> > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list
> > frequently.
> > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, although in
> > hours.
> > > > > >     - It means users can get problems solved by using mailing
> list.
> > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
> > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports
> > > > > searching
> > > > > > itself.
> > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on
> Baidu.
> > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO,
> Baidu
> > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > Jark
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [1].
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most
> questions
> > > are
> > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000 people
> now.
> > > > > Here're
> > > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and updates,
> > > > broadcast
> > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer
> > questions
> > > > and
> > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...) We
> > probably
> > > > all
> > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really searchable,
> topics
> > > lost
> > > > > > fast,
> > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening doing any
> > > > > homework
> > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and haven't
> > > > really
> > > > > > look
> > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the group is
> > also
> > > > > going
> > > > > > > down because of the problems.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists nowadays
> > for
> > > > its
> > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic focused,
> > etc.
> > > > And
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should happen
> in
> > > the
> > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what that
> > DingTalk
> > > > > group
> > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work together with
> > our
> > > > > > user-zh
> > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of just let
> it
> > > > drive
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on how we
> > should
> > > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should only be
> used
> > > for
> > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates,
> broadcasting
> > > live
> > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions should be
> > > diverted
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk group so
> > that
> > > > they
> > > > > > > can share their thoughts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bowen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Hey all,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a few months old and I
> > wanted
> > > > to
> > > > > > hear
> > > > > > >> how things are going.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 ?), I
> > would
> > > > have
> > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also
> > > understand
> > > > > that
> > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last
> century.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
> > > > > > >> Feb: 72
> > > > > > >> Mar: 170
> > > > > > >> Apr: 119
> > > > > > >> May: 62
> > > > > > >> Jun: 10
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help adoption of
> > that
> > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > >> list?
> > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing up on
> > > Baidu
> > > > > when
> > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it makes
> > > sense
> > > > to
> > > > > > >> have
> > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Best,
> > > > > > >> Robert
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > That's great.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Jark Wu-2]

> Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the users if they
send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing `user-zh-subscribe@`?
Hi @Gordon, Can we customize the reply to Chinese? Is that possible? I
think one reason is many Chinese people don't understand the meaning of the
reply.

On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 12:01, Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Gordon,
>
> Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information!
> As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of people told me
> that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I think your
> information gives a good answer!
>
> - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of `user-zh-subscribe@`.
> The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to subscribe using
> `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize more about it
> not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`.
> Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the users if they
> send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing `user-zh-subscribe@`? This
> may
> also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list.
>
> - Network problem.
> This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now, I told one
> guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows everything becomes
> normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we can do is
> try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use Gmail in
> preference to qq.com, etc.
>
> BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this week. I want
> to let more people join in the survey.
>
> Best, Hequn
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as a moderator
> > of the user-zh@ mailing list:
> >
> > - About at least once every day, there would be someone trying to
> > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, and not
> > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can do in
> > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in subscribing to
> > the Apache mailing list.
> >
> > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email domains, for
> > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked. This would
> > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing list since
> they
> > can't complete the subscribe process.
> > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email conversations
> > from the mailing list either.
> >
> > Best,
> > Gordon
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people
> > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use mailing
> > list
> > > frequently.
> > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more on
> > > mailing lists?
> > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several times,
> when
> > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use user-zh ML.
> > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you help answer
> > the
> > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the question in
> > group
> > > again.
> > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is growing
> too
> > > fast to educate everyone to use ML.  The number grows from 5,000 to
> > 10,000
> > > in the past months.
> > >
> > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.  We
> > can
> > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching itself.
> > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link:
> > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/
> > >   It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help.
> > >
> > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related information?
> > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu for most
> > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO.
> > >   Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on this.
> > >
> > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a better
> > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users need.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Jark
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark for
> your
> > > nice
> > > > thoughts.
> > > >
> > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason is
> that
> > a
> > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a lot of
> > > people
> > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group. Even
> though,
> > > for
> > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in the
> > DingTalk
> > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group. For
> > these
> > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice.
> > > >
> > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming ruined. In
> > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I think
> we
> > > can
> > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such as:
> > > >
> > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more convenient
> > and
> > > > fast.
> > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list.
> > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list.
> > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing list
> > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user mailing list
> > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list.
> > > > 7. other reasons.
> > > >
> > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here.
> > > >
> > > > Best, Hequn
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation team has
> > > done
> > > > a
> > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion is not
> > about
> > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high growth
> pain
> > > > IMHO.
> > > > >
> > > > > >>  We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to
> use
> > > > > mailing list frequently.
> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more
> > on
> > > > > mailing lists?
> > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with lower
> > cost
> > > > than
> > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the case
> > too.
> > > > The
> > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down with it
> though.
> > > > When I
> > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were typically a
> > log
> > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many of them
> > > never
> > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may have
> > changed
> > > > > now, I'm sure.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow good
> > > > apache
> > > > > practices.
> > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and with
> Flink
> > > > China
> > > > > operation team".
> > > > >
> > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on user-zh's
> > low
> > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation team as
> > part
> > > > of
> > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on ideas and
> > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are all
> > > **devs**
> > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the main
> > > > question
> > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team** voted
> or
> > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them the
> > purpose
> > > of
> > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's something we
> can
> > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China operation
> > team
> > > > as
> > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to join
> > > related
> > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now on.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat group with
> > 10k
> > > > > > members!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the
> > Chinese-speaking
> > > > > world
> > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND
> follow
> > > > good
> > > > > > apache practices.
> > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user support via
> > > Chat
> > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people away
> > from
> > > > > that,
> > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink in
> > China.
> > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using mailing
> > lists,
> > > > or
> > > > > > will it hinder adoption?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> > > people
> > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list
> > > frequently.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case?
> > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching.
> > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which
> supports
> > > > > > searching
> > > > > > > itself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on
> Baidu.
> > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO,
> > Baidu
> > > is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related
> > information?
> > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding help when
> > > they
> > > > > run
> > > > > > into problems with a system?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > Robert
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk.
> > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but
> > > > people
> > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk.
> > > > > > >     - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list
> > > frequently.
> > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, although in
> > > hours.
> > > > > > >     - It means users can get problems solved by using mailing
> > list.
> > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support
> searching.
> > > > > > >     -  We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which
> supports
> > > > > > searching
> > > > > > > itself.
> > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on
> > Baidu.
> > > > > > >     - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO,
> > Baidu
> > > is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > Jark
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [1].
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most
> > questions
> > > > are
> > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000 people
> > now.
> > > > > > Here're
> > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and updates,
> > > > > broadcast
> > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer
> > > questions
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...) We
> > > probably
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really searchable,
> > topics
> > > > lost
> > > > > > > fast,
> > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening doing
> any
> > > > > > homework
> > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and
> haven't
> > > > > really
> > > > > > > look
> > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the group is
> > > also
> > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > down because of the problems.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists
> nowadays
> > > for
> > > > > its
> > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic focused,
> > > etc.
> > > > > And
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should
> happen
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what that
> > > DingTalk
> > > > > > group
> > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work together
> with
> > > our
> > > > > > > user-zh
> > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of just let
> > it
> > > > > drive
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on how we
> > > should
> > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should only be
> > used
> > > > for
> > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates,
> > broadcasting
> > > > live
> > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions should be
> > > > diverted
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk group so
> > > that
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > > can share their thoughts.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bowen
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> Hey all,
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> the [hidden email] is now a few months old and I
> > > wanted
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > hear
> > > > > > > >> how things are going.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 ?), I
> > > would
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also
> > > > understand
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last
> > century.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month:
> > > > > > > >> Feb: 72
> > > > > > > >> Mar: 170
> > > > > > > >> Apr: 119
> > > > > > > >> May: 62
> > > > > > > >> Jun: 10
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help adoption
> of
> > > that
> > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > >> list?
> > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing up
> on
> > > > Baidu
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it
> makes
> > > > sense
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > >> have
> > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China?
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Best,
> > > > > > > >> Robert
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > That's great.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>