[DISCUSS] Drop vendor specific deployment documentation.

[Seth Wiesman-4]

Hi all,

I'd like to discuss dropping vendor-specific deployment documentation from
Flink's official docs. To be clear, I am *NOT* suggesting we drop any of
the filesystem documentation, but the following three pages.

AWS:
https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/aws.html
Google Compute Engine:
https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/gce_setup.html
MapR:
https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/mapr_setup.html

Unlike the filesystems, these docs do not refer to components maintained by
the Apache Flink community, but external commercial services and products.
None of these pages are well maintained and I do not think the open-source
community can reasonably be expected to keep them up to date. In
particular,


   - The AWS page contains sparse information and mostly just links to the
   official EMR docs.
   - The Google Compute Engine page is out of date and the commands do not
   work.
   - MapR contains some relevant information but the community has already
   dropped the MapR filesystem so I am not sure that deployment would work (I
   have not tested).

There is also a larger question of which vendor products should be included
and which should not. That is why I would like to suggest dropping these
pages and referring users to vendor maintained documentation whenever they
are using one of these services.

Seth Wiesman

[Konstantin Knauf-3]

+1 from my side to drop.

On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:34 PM Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'd like to discuss dropping vendor-specific deployment documentation from
> Flink's official docs. To be clear, I am *NOT* suggesting we drop any of
> the filesystem documentation, but the following three pages.
>
> AWS:
>
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/aws.html
> Google Compute Engine:
>
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/gce_setup.html
> MapR:
>
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/mapr_setup.html
>
> Unlike the filesystems, these docs do not refer to components maintained by
> the Apache Flink community, but external commercial services and products.
> None of these pages are well maintained and I do not think the open-source
> community can reasonably be expected to keep them up to date. In
> particular,
>
>
>    - The AWS page contains sparse information and mostly just links to the
>    official EMR docs.
>    - The Google Compute Engine page is out of date and the commands do not
>    work.
>    - MapR contains some relevant information but the community has already
>    dropped the MapR filesystem so I am not sure that deployment would work
> (I
>    have not tested).
>
> There is also a larger question of which vendor products should be included
> and which should not. That is why I would like to suggest dropping these
> pages and referring users to vendor maintained documentation whenever they
> are using one of these services.
>
> Seth Wiesman
>

--

Konstantin Knauf | Solutions Architect

[phone]


Follow us @VervericaData Ververica <https://www.ververica.com/>


--

Join Flink Forward <https://flink-forward.org/> - The Apache Flink
Conference

Stream Processing | Event Driven | Real Time

--

Ververica GmbH | Invalidenstrasse 115, 10115 Berlin, Germany

--
Ververica GmbH
Registered at Amtsgericht Charlottenburg: HRB 158244 B
Managing Directors: Timothy Alexander Steinert, Yip Park Tung Jason, Ji
(Tony) Cheng

[Aljoscha Krettek-2]

+1

Best,
Aljoscha

> On 2. Dec 2019, at 18:38, Konstantin Knauf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> +1 from my side to drop.
>
> On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:34 PM Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'd like to discuss dropping vendor-specific deployment documentation from
>> Flink's official docs. To be clear, I am *NOT* suggesting we drop any of
>> the filesystem documentation, but the following three pages.
>>
>> AWS:
>>
>> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/aws.html
>> Google Compute Engine:
>>
>> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/gce_setup.html
>> MapR:
>>
>> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/mapr_setup.html
>>
>> Unlike the filesystems, these docs do not refer to components maintained by
>> the Apache Flink community, but external commercial services and products.
>> None of these pages are well maintained and I do not think the open-source
>> community can reasonably be expected to keep them up to date. In
>> particular,
>>
>>
>>   - The AWS page contains sparse information and mostly just links to the
>>   official EMR docs.
>>   - The Google Compute Engine page is out of date and the commands do not
>>   work.
>>   - MapR contains some relevant information but the community has already
>>   dropped the MapR filesystem so I am not sure that deployment would work
>> (I
>>   have not tested).
>>
>> There is also a larger question of which vendor products should be included
>> and which should not. That is why I would like to suggest dropping these
>> pages and referring users to vendor maintained documentation whenever they
>> are using one of these services.
>>
>> Seth Wiesman
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Konstantin Knauf | Solutions Architect
>
> [phone]
>
>
> Follow us @VervericaData Ververica <https://www.ververica.com/>
>
>
> --
>
> Join Flink Forward <https://flink-forward.org/> - The Apache Flink
> Conference
>
> Stream Processing | Event Driven | Real Time
>
> --
>
> Ververica GmbH | Invalidenstrasse 115, 10115 Berlin, Germany
>
> --
> Ververica GmbH
> Registered at Amtsgericht Charlottenburg: HRB 158244 B
> Managing Directors: Timothy Alexander Steinert, Yip Park Tung Jason, Ji
> (Tony) Cheng

[Till Rohrmann]

If the community cannot manage to keep the vendor-specific documentation up
to date, then I believe it is better to drop it. Hence +1 for the proposal.

Cheers,
Till

On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:12 PM Aljoscha Krettek <[hidden email]> wrote:

> +1
>
> Best,
> Aljoscha
>
> > On 2. Dec 2019, at 18:38, Konstantin Knauf <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > +1 from my side to drop.
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:34 PM Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I'd like to discuss dropping vendor-specific deployment documentation
> from
> >> Flink's official docs. To be clear, I am *NOT* suggesting we drop any of
> >> the filesystem documentation, but the following three pages.
> >>
> >> AWS:
> >>
> >>
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/aws.html
> >> Google Compute Engine:
> >>
> >>
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/gce_setup.html
> >> MapR:
> >>
> >>
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/mapr_setup.html
> >>
> >> Unlike the filesystems, these docs do not refer to components
> maintained by
> >> the Apache Flink community, but external commercial services and
> products.
> >> None of these pages are well maintained and I do not think the
> open-source
> >> community can reasonably be expected to keep them up to date. In
> >> particular,
> >>
> >>
> >>   - The AWS page contains sparse information and mostly just links to
> the
> >>   official EMR docs.
> >>   - The Google Compute Engine page is out of date and the commands do
> not
> >>   work.
> >>   - MapR contains some relevant information but the community has
> already
> >>   dropped the MapR filesystem so I am not sure that deployment would
> work
> >> (I
> >>   have not tested).
> >>
> >> There is also a larger question of which vendor products should be
> included
> >> and which should not. That is why I would like to suggest dropping these
> >> pages and referring users to vendor maintained documentation whenever
> they
> >> are using one of these services.
> >>
> >> Seth Wiesman
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Konstantin Knauf | Solutions Architect
> >
> > [phone]
> >
> >
> > Follow us @VervericaData Ververica <https://www.ververica.com/>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Join Flink Forward <https://flink-forward.org/> - The Apache Flink
> > Conference
> >
> > Stream Processing | Event Driven | Real Time
> >
> > --
> >
> > Ververica GmbH | Invalidenstrasse 115, 10115 Berlin, Germany
> >
> > --
> > Ververica GmbH
> > Registered at Amtsgericht Charlottenburg: HRB 158244 B
> > Managing Directors: Timothy Alexander Steinert, Yip Park Tung Jason, Ji
> > (Tony) Cheng
>
>

[Ufuk Celebi-2]

+1 to drop the MapR page.

For the other two I'm +0. I fully agree that the linked AWS and GCE pages
are in bad shape and don't relate to a component developed by the
community. Do we have any numbers from Google Analytics on how popular
those pages are? If they are somewhat popular, I would prefer to "fix them"
to be good starting points for users in those environments (probably by
boiling them down to saying something simple such as "You should use
FileSystem [...] and point it to [...].").

– Ufuk

On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:49 AM Till Rohrmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If the community cannot manage to keep the vendor-specific documentation
up
> to date, then I believe it is better to drop it. Hence +1 for the
proposal.
>
> Cheers,
> Till
>
> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:12 PM Aljoscha Krettek <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> > +1
> >
> > Best,
> > Aljoscha
> >
> > > On 2. Dec 2019, at 18:38, Konstantin Knauf <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > +1 from my side to drop.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:34 PM Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]>

wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi all,
> > >>
> > >> I'd like to discuss dropping vendor-specific deployment documentation
> > from
> > >> Flink's official docs. To be clear, I am *NOT* suggesting we drop
any of
> > >> the filesystem documentation, but the following three pages.
> > >>
> > >> AWS:
> > >>
> > >>
> >
https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/aws.html
> > >> Google Compute Engine:
> > >>
> > >>
> >
https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/gce_setup.html
> > >> MapR:
> > >>
> > >>
> >
https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/mapr_setup.html

> > >>
> > >> Unlike the filesystems, these docs do not refer to components
> > maintained by
> > >> the Apache Flink community, but external commercial services and
> > products.
> > >> None of these pages are well maintained and I do not think the
> > open-source
> > >> community can reasonably be expected to keep them up to date. In
> > >> particular,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>   - The AWS page contains sparse information and mostly just links to
> > the
> > >>   official EMR docs.
> > >>   - The Google Compute Engine page is out of date and the commands do
> > not
> > >>   work.
> > >>   - MapR contains some relevant information but the community has
> > already
> > >>   dropped the MapR filesystem so I am not sure that deployment would
> > work
> > >> (I
> > >>   have not tested).
> > >>
> > >> There is also a larger question of which vendor products should be
> > included
> > >> and which should not. That is why I would like to suggest dropping

these

> > >> pages and referring users to vendor maintained documentation whenever
> > they
> > >> are using one of these services.
> > >>
> > >> Seth Wiesman
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Konstantin Knauf | Solutions Architect
> > >
> > > [phone]
> > >
> > >
> > > Follow us @VervericaData Ververica <https://www.ververica.com/>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Join Flink Forward <https://flink-forward.org/> - The Apache Flink
> > > Conference
> > >
> > > Stream Processing | Event Driven | Real Time
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Ververica GmbH | Invalidenstrasse 115, 10115 Berlin, Germany
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ververica GmbH
> > > Registered at Amtsgericht Charlottenburg: HRB 158244 B
> > > Managing Directors: Timothy Alexander Steinert, Yip Park Tung Jason,

Ji
> > > (Tony) Cheng
> >
> >

[Trevor Grant]

Same as Ufuk (non-binding)

In general, docs pages are great "first commits" to leave out there as
newb-issues.

Also though, worth checking how often people use the page (e.g. GA)

3rd option: add a `.bu` to AWS/GCE pages and open a JIRA ticket to fix them
(and put a readme explaining why they are in `.bu` status (which should
prevent the build from picking them up), in essence, you're commenting them
all out until someone can come around fix them.

Further, I would put a holder page in their place that says something like,
"This works, but we need someone to update the docs- check out JIRA XXXX
for more details", might get someone to clean em up sooner w a little
advertising.

Just my .02

I can't do full overhauls right now, but I could execute the "comment out"
option if it comes to that.


On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:35 AM Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> +1 to drop the MapR page.
>
> For the other two I'm +0. I fully agree that the linked AWS and GCE pages
> are in bad shape and don't relate to a component developed by the
> community. Do we have any numbers from Google Analytics on how popular
> those pages are? If they are somewhat popular, I would prefer to "fix them"
> to be good starting points for users in those environments (probably by
> boiling them down to saying something simple such as "You should use
> FileSystem [...] and point it to [...].").
>
> – Ufuk
>
> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:49 AM Till Rohrmann <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > If the community cannot manage to keep the vendor-specific documentation
> up
> > to date, then I believe it is better to drop it. Hence +1 for the
> proposal.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Till
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:12 PM Aljoscha Krettek <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > +1
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Aljoscha
> > >
> > > > On 2. Dec 2019, at 18:38, Konstantin Knauf <[hidden email]
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > +1 from my side to drop.
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:34 PM Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi all,
> > > >>
> > > >> I'd like to discuss dropping vendor-specific deployment
> documentation
> > > from
> > > >> Flink's official docs. To be clear, I am *NOT* suggesting we drop
> any of
> > > >> the filesystem documentation, but the following three pages.
> > > >>
> > > >> AWS:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
>
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/aws.html
> > > >> Google Compute Engine:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
>
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/gce_setup.html
> > > >> MapR:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
>
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/mapr_setup.html
> > > >>
> > > >> Unlike the filesystems, these docs do not refer to components
> > > maintained by
> > > >> the Apache Flink community, but external commercial services and
> > > products.
> > > >> None of these pages are well maintained and I do not think the
> > > open-source
> > > >> community can reasonably be expected to keep them up to date. In
> > > >> particular,
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>   - The AWS page contains sparse information and mostly just links
> to
> > > the
> > > >>   official EMR docs.
> > > >>   - The Google Compute Engine page is out of date and the commands
> do
> > > not
> > > >>   work.
> > > >>   - MapR contains some relevant information but the community has
> > > already
> > > >>   dropped the MapR filesystem so I am not sure that deployment would
> > > work
> > > >> (I
> > > >>   have not tested).
> > > >>
> > > >> There is also a larger question of which vendor products should be
> > > included
> > > >> and which should not. That is why I would like to suggest dropping
> these
> > > >> pages and referring users to vendor maintained documentation
> whenever
> > > they
> > > >> are using one of these services.
> > > >>
> > > >> Seth Wiesman
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Konstantin Knauf | Solutions Architect
> > > >
> > > > [phone]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Follow us @VervericaData Ververica <https://www.ververica.com/>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Join Flink Forward <https://flink-forward.org/> - The Apache Flink
> > > > Conference
> > > >
> > > > Stream Processing | Event Driven | Real Time
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Ververica GmbH | Invalidenstrasse 115, 10115 Berlin, Germany
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ververica GmbH
> > > > Registered at Amtsgericht Charlottenburg: HRB 158244 B
> > > > Managing Directors: Timothy Alexander Steinert, Yip Park Tung Jason,
> Ji
> > > > (Tony) Cheng
> > >
> > >
>

[Robert Metzger]

I just checked GA:

All numbers are for the last month, independent of the Flink version:
aws.html: 918 pageviews
mapr_setup.html: 108 pageviews
gce_setup.html: 256 pageviews

Some other deployment-related pages for reference:
yarn_setup: 4687
cluster: 4284
kubernetes: 3428





On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 1:53 PM Trevor Grant <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Same as Ufuk (non-binding)
>
> In general, docs pages are great "first commits" to leave out there as
> newb-issues.
>
> Also though, worth checking how often people use the page (e.g. GA)
>
> 3rd option: add a `.bu` to AWS/GCE pages and open a JIRA ticket to fix them
> (and put a readme explaining why they are in `.bu` status (which should
> prevent the build from picking them up), in essence, you're commenting them
> all out until someone can come around fix them.
>
> Further, I would put a holder page in their place that says something like,
> "This works, but we need someone to update the docs- check out JIRA XXXX
> for more details", might get someone to clean em up sooner w a little
> advertising.
>
> Just my .02
>
> I can't do full overhauls right now, but I could execute the "comment out"
> option if it comes to that.
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:35 AM Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > +1 to drop the MapR page.
> >
> > For the other two I'm +0. I fully agree that the linked AWS and GCE pages
> > are in bad shape and don't relate to a component developed by the
> > community. Do we have any numbers from Google Analytics on how popular
> > those pages are? If they are somewhat popular, I would prefer to "fix
> them"
> > to be good starting points for users in those environments (probably by
> > boiling them down to saying something simple such as "You should use
> > FileSystem [...] and point it to [...].").
> >
> > – Ufuk
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:49 AM Till Rohrmann <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > If the community cannot manage to keep the vendor-specific
> documentation
> > up
> > > to date, then I believe it is better to drop it. Hence +1 for the
> > proposal.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Till
> > >
> > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:12 PM Aljoscha Krettek <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Aljoscha
> > > >
> > > > > On 2. Dec 2019, at 18:38, Konstantin Knauf <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > +1 from my side to drop.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:34 PM Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Hi all,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I'd like to discuss dropping vendor-specific deployment
> > documentation
> > > > from
> > > > >> Flink's official docs. To be clear, I am *NOT* suggesting we drop
> > any of
> > > > >> the filesystem documentation, but the following three pages.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> AWS:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> >
> >
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/aws.html
> > > > >> Google Compute Engine:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> >
> >
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/gce_setup.html
> > > > >> MapR:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> >
> >
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/mapr_setup.html
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Unlike the filesystems, these docs do not refer to components
> > > > maintained by
> > > > >> the Apache Flink community, but external commercial services and
> > > > products.
> > > > >> None of these pages are well maintained and I do not think the
> > > > open-source
> > > > >> community can reasonably be expected to keep them up to date. In
> > > > >> particular,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>   - The AWS page contains sparse information and mostly just links
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > >>   official EMR docs.
> > > > >>   - The Google Compute Engine page is out of date and the commands
> > do
> > > > not
> > > > >>   work.
> > > > >>   - MapR contains some relevant information but the community has
> > > > already
> > > > >>   dropped the MapR filesystem so I am not sure that deployment
> would
> > > > work
> > > > >> (I
> > > > >>   have not tested).
> > > > >>
> > > > >> There is also a larger question of which vendor products should be
> > > > included
> > > > >> and which should not. That is why I would like to suggest dropping
> > these
> > > > >> pages and referring users to vendor maintained documentation
> > whenever
> > > > they
> > > > >> are using one of these services.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Seth Wiesman
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > Konstantin Knauf | Solutions Architect
> > > > >
> > > > > [phone]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Follow us @VervericaData Ververica <https://www.ververica.com/>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > Join Flink Forward <https://flink-forward.org/> - The Apache Flink
> > > > > Conference
> > > > >
> > > > > Stream Processing | Event Driven | Real Time
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > Ververica GmbH | Invalidenstrasse 115, 10115 Berlin, Germany
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Ververica GmbH
> > > > > Registered at Amtsgericht Charlottenburg: HRB 158244 B
> > > > > Managing Directors: Timothy Alexander Steinert, Yip Park Tung
> Jason,
> > Ji
> > > > > (Tony) Cheng
> > > >
> > > >
> >
>

[Trevor Grant]

Based on that the only "maybe" is AWS, and I just googled it and AWS docs
pretty well own the first page (flink.apache.org shows up 3/4 the way down
on first page behind AWS docs).

I revise my "vote" to +1 to dump the whole thing.

On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 7:26 AM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just checked GA:
>
> All numbers are for the last month, independent of the Flink version:
> aws.html: 918 pageviews
> mapr_setup.html: 108 pageviews
> gce_setup.html: 256 pageviews
>
> Some other deployment-related pages for reference:
> yarn_setup: 4687
> cluster: 4284
> kubernetes: 3428
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 1:53 PM Trevor Grant <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Same as Ufuk (non-binding)
> >
> > In general, docs pages are great "first commits" to leave out there as
> > newb-issues.
> >
> > Also though, worth checking how often people use the page (e.g. GA)
> >
> > 3rd option: add a `.bu` to AWS/GCE pages and open a JIRA ticket to fix
> them
> > (and put a readme explaining why they are in `.bu` status (which should
> > prevent the build from picking them up), in essence, you're commenting
> them
> > all out until someone can come around fix them.
> >
> > Further, I would put a holder page in their place that says something
> like,
> > "This works, but we need someone to update the docs- check out JIRA XXXX
> > for more details", might get someone to clean em up sooner w a little
> > advertising.
> >
> > Just my .02
> >
> > I can't do full overhauls right now, but I could execute the "comment
> out"
> > option if it comes to that.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:35 AM Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > +1 to drop the MapR page.
> > >
> > > For the other two I'm +0. I fully agree that the linked AWS and GCE
> pages
> > > are in bad shape and don't relate to a component developed by the
> > > community. Do we have any numbers from Google Analytics on how popular
> > > those pages are? If they are somewhat popular, I would prefer to "fix
> > them"
> > > to be good starting points for users in those environments (probably by
> > > boiling them down to saying something simple such as "You should use
> > > FileSystem [...] and point it to [...].").
> > >
> > > – Ufuk
> > >
> > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:49 AM Till Rohrmann <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If the community cannot manage to keep the vendor-specific
> > documentation
> > > up
> > > > to date, then I believe it is better to drop it. Hence +1 for the
> > > proposal.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Till
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:12 PM Aljoscha Krettek <[hidden email]
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Aljoscha
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 2. Dec 2019, at 18:38, Konstantin Knauf <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > +1 from my side to drop.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:34 PM Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Hi all,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I'd like to discuss dropping vendor-specific deployment
> > > documentation
> > > > > from
> > > > > >> Flink's official docs. To be clear, I am *NOT* suggesting we
> drop
> > > any of
> > > > > >> the filesystem documentation, but the following three pages.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> AWS:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/aws.html
> > > > > >> Google Compute Engine:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/gce_setup.html
> > > > > >> MapR:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/mapr_setup.html
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Unlike the filesystems, these docs do not refer to components
> > > > > maintained by
> > > > > >> the Apache Flink community, but external commercial services and
> > > > > products.
> > > > > >> None of these pages are well maintained and I do not think the
> > > > > open-source
> > > > > >> community can reasonably be expected to keep them up to date. In
> > > > > >> particular,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>   - The AWS page contains sparse information and mostly just
> links
> > > to
> > > > > the
> > > > > >>   official EMR docs.
> > > > > >>   - The Google Compute Engine page is out of date and the
> commands
> > > do
> > > > > not
> > > > > >>   work.
> > > > > >>   - MapR contains some relevant information but the community
> has
> > > > > already
> > > > > >>   dropped the MapR filesystem so I am not sure that deployment
> > would
> > > > > work
> > > > > >> (I
> > > > > >>   have not tested).
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> There is also a larger question of which vendor products should
> be
> > > > > included
> > > > > >> and which should not. That is why I would like to suggest
> dropping
> > > these
> > > > > >> pages and referring users to vendor maintained documentation
> > > whenever
> > > > > they
> > > > > >> are using one of these services.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Seth Wiesman
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Konstantin Knauf | Solutions Architect
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [phone]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Follow us @VervericaData Ververica <https://www.ververica.com/>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Join Flink Forward <https://flink-forward.org/> - The Apache
> Flink
> > > > > > Conference
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Stream Processing | Event Driven | Real Time
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ververica GmbH | Invalidenstrasse 115, 10115 Berlin, Germany
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Ververica GmbH
> > > > > > Registered at Amtsgericht Charlottenburg: HRB 158244 B
> > > > > > Managing Directors: Timothy Alexander Steinert, Yip Park Tung
> > Jason,
> > > Ji
> > > > > > (Tony) Cheng
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Chesnay Schepler-3]

Question now is whether the numbers are so low because the docs aren't
required or because they are so bad.

On 05/12/2019 14:26, Robert Metzger wrote:

> I just checked GA:
>
> All numbers are for the last month, independent of the Flink version:
> aws.html: 918 pageviews
> mapr_setup.html: 108 pageviews
> gce_setup.html: 256 pageviews
>
> Some other deployment-related pages for reference:
> yarn_setup: 4687
> cluster: 4284
> kubernetes: 3428
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 1:53 PM Trevor Grant <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Same as Ufuk (non-binding)
>>
>> In general, docs pages are great "first commits" to leave out there as
>> newb-issues.
>>
>> Also though, worth checking how often people use the page (e.g. GA)
>>
>> 3rd option: add a `.bu` to AWS/GCE pages and open a JIRA ticket to fix them
>> (and put a readme explaining why they are in `.bu` status (which should
>> prevent the build from picking them up), in essence, you're commenting them
>> all out until someone can come around fix them.
>>
>> Further, I would put a holder page in their place that says something like,
>> "This works, but we need someone to update the docs- check out JIRA XXXX
>> for more details", might get someone to clean em up sooner w a little
>> advertising.
>>
>> Just my .02
>>
>> I can't do full overhauls right now, but I could execute the "comment out"
>> option if it comes to that.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:35 AM Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> +1 to drop the MapR page.
>>>
>>> For the other two I'm +0. I fully agree that the linked AWS and GCE pages
>>> are in bad shape and don't relate to a component developed by the
>>> community. Do we have any numbers from Google Analytics on how popular
>>> those pages are? If they are somewhat popular, I would prefer to "fix
>> them"
>>> to be good starting points for users in those environments (probably by
>>> boiling them down to saying something simple such as "You should use
>>> FileSystem [...] and point it to [...].").
>>>
>>> – Ufuk
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:49 AM Till Rohrmann <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> If the community cannot manage to keep the vendor-specific
>> documentation
>>> up
>>>> to date, then I believe it is better to drop it. Hence +1 for the
>>> proposal.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Till
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:12 PM Aljoscha Krettek <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Aljoscha
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2. Dec 2019, at 18:38, Konstantin Knauf <
>> [hidden email]
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> +1 from my side to drop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:34 PM Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd like to discuss dropping vendor-specific deployment
>>> documentation
>>>>> from
>>>>>>> Flink's official docs. To be clear, I am *NOT* suggesting we drop
>>> any of
>>>>>>> the filesystem documentation, but the following three pages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AWS:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
>> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/aws.html
>>>>>>> Google Compute Engine:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
>> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/gce_setup.html
>>>>>>> MapR:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
>> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/mapr_setup.html
>>>>>>> Unlike the filesystems, these docs do not refer to components
>>>>> maintained by
>>>>>>> the Apache Flink community, but external commercial services and
>>>>> products.
>>>>>>> None of these pages are well maintained and I do not think the
>>>>> open-source
>>>>>>> community can reasonably be expected to keep them up to date. In
>>>>>>> particular,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    - The AWS page contains sparse information and mostly just links
>>> to
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>    official EMR docs.
>>>>>>>    - The Google Compute Engine page is out of date and the commands
>>> do
>>>>> not
>>>>>>>    work.
>>>>>>>    - MapR contains some relevant information but the community has
>>>>> already
>>>>>>>    dropped the MapR filesystem so I am not sure that deployment
>> would
>>>>> work
>>>>>>> (I
>>>>>>>    have not tested).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is also a larger question of which vendor products should be
>>>>> included
>>>>>>> and which should not. That is why I would like to suggest dropping
>>> these
>>>>>>> pages and referring users to vendor maintained documentation
>>> whenever
>>>>> they
>>>>>>> are using one of these services.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seth Wiesman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Konstantin Knauf | Solutions Architect
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [phone]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Follow us @VervericaData Ververica <https://www.ververica.com/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Join Flink Forward <https://flink-forward.org/> - The Apache Flink
>>>>>> Conference
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stream Processing | Event Driven | Real Time
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ververica GmbH | Invalidenstrasse 115, 10115 Berlin, Germany
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ververica GmbH
>>>>>> Registered at Amtsgericht Charlottenburg: HRB 158244 B
>>>>>> Managing Directors: Timothy Alexander Steinert, Yip Park Tung
>> Jason,
>>> Ji
>>>>>> (Tony) Cheng
>>>>>

[Trevor Grant]

You can infer that by looking at the "bounce rate" eg someone gets to the
page, looks at it, realizes its trash and clicks "back".



On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 8:46 AM Chesnay Schepler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Question now is whether the numbers are so low because the docs aren't
> required or because they are so bad.
>
> On 05/12/2019 14:26, Robert Metzger wrote:
> > I just checked GA:
> >
> > All numbers are for the last month, independent of the Flink version:
> > aws.html: 918 pageviews
> > mapr_setup.html: 108 pageviews
> > gce_setup.html: 256 pageviews
> >
> > Some other deployment-related pages for reference:
> > yarn_setup: 4687
> > cluster: 4284
> > kubernetes: 3428
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 1:53 PM Trevor Grant <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Same as Ufuk (non-binding)
> >>
> >> In general, docs pages are great "first commits" to leave out there as
> >> newb-issues.
> >>
> >> Also though, worth checking how often people use the page (e.g. GA)
> >>
> >> 3rd option: add a `.bu` to AWS/GCE pages and open a JIRA ticket to fix
> them
> >> (and put a readme explaining why they are in `.bu` status (which should
> >> prevent the build from picking them up), in essence, you're commenting
> them
> >> all out until someone can come around fix them.
> >>
> >> Further, I would put a holder page in their place that says something
> like,
> >> "This works, but we need someone to update the docs- check out JIRA XXXX
> >> for more details", might get someone to clean em up sooner w a little
> >> advertising.
> >>
> >> Just my .02
> >>
> >> I can't do full overhauls right now, but I could execute the "comment
> out"
> >> option if it comes to that.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:35 AM Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> +1 to drop the MapR page.
> >>>
> >>> For the other two I'm +0. I fully agree that the linked AWS and GCE
> pages
> >>> are in bad shape and don't relate to a component developed by the
> >>> community. Do we have any numbers from Google Analytics on how popular
> >>> those pages are? If they are somewhat popular, I would prefer to "fix
> >> them"
> >>> to be good starting points for users in those environments (probably by
> >>> boiling them down to saying something simple such as "You should use
> >>> FileSystem [...] and point it to [...].").
> >>>
> >>> – Ufuk
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:49 AM Till Rohrmann <[hidden email]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> If the community cannot manage to keep the vendor-specific
> >> documentation
> >>> up
> >>>> to date, then I believe it is better to drop it. Hence +1 for the
> >>> proposal.
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> Till
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:12 PM Aljoscha Krettek <[hidden email]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>> +1
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best,
> >>>>> Aljoscha
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 2. Dec 2019, at 18:38, Konstantin Knauf <
> >> [hidden email]
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> +1 from my side to drop.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:34 PM Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'd like to discuss dropping vendor-specific deployment
> >>> documentation
> >>>>> from
> >>>>>>> Flink's official docs. To be clear, I am *NOT* suggesting we drop
> >>> any of
> >>>>>>> the filesystem documentation, but the following three pages.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> AWS:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/aws.html
> >>>>>>> Google Compute Engine:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/gce_setup.html
> >>>>>>> MapR:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/mapr_setup.html
> >>>>>>> Unlike the filesystems, these docs do not refer to components
> >>>>> maintained by
> >>>>>>> the Apache Flink community, but external commercial services and
> >>>>> products.
> >>>>>>> None of these pages are well maintained and I do not think the
> >>>>> open-source
> >>>>>>> community can reasonably be expected to keep them up to date. In
> >>>>>>> particular,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>    - The AWS page contains sparse information and mostly just links
> >>> to
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>>    official EMR docs.
> >>>>>>>    - The Google Compute Engine page is out of date and the commands
> >>> do
> >>>>> not
> >>>>>>>    work.
> >>>>>>>    - MapR contains some relevant information but the community has
> >>>>> already
> >>>>>>>    dropped the MapR filesystem so I am not sure that deployment
> >> would
> >>>>> work
> >>>>>>> (I
> >>>>>>>    have not tested).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There is also a larger question of which vendor products should be
> >>>>> included
> >>>>>>> and which should not. That is why I would like to suggest dropping
> >>> these
> >>>>>>> pages and referring users to vendor maintained documentation
> >>> whenever
> >>>>> they
> >>>>>>> are using one of these services.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Seth Wiesman
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Konstantin Knauf | Solutions Architect
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> [phone]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Follow us @VervericaData Ververica <https://www.ververica.com/>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Join Flink Forward <https://flink-forward.org/> - The Apache Flink
> >>>>>> Conference
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Stream Processing | Event Driven | Real Time
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ververica GmbH | Invalidenstrasse 115, 10115 Berlin, Germany
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Ververica GmbH
> >>>>>> Registered at Amtsgericht Charlottenburg: HRB 158244 B
> >>>>>> Managing Directors: Timothy Alexander Steinert, Yip Park Tung
> >> Jason,
> >>> Ji
> >>>>>> (Tony) Cheng
> >>>>>
>
>

[Robert Metzger]

The bounce rate of these pages is not particularly bad.

On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 3:48 PM Trevor Grant <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> You can infer that by looking at the "bounce rate" eg someone gets to the
> page, looks at it, realizes its trash and clicks "back".
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 8:46 AM Chesnay Schepler <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Question now is whether the numbers are so low because the docs aren't
> > required or because they are so bad.
> >
> > On 05/12/2019 14:26, Robert Metzger wrote:
> > > I just checked GA:
> > >
> > > All numbers are for the last month, independent of the Flink version:
> > > aws.html: 918 pageviews
> > > mapr_setup.html: 108 pageviews
> > > gce_setup.html: 256 pageviews
> > >
> > > Some other deployment-related pages for reference:
> > > yarn_setup: 4687
> > > cluster: 4284
> > > kubernetes: 3428
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 1:53 PM Trevor Grant <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Same as Ufuk (non-binding)
> > >>
> > >> In general, docs pages are great "first commits" to leave out there as
> > >> newb-issues.
> > >>
> > >> Also though, worth checking how often people use the page (e.g. GA)
> > >>
> > >> 3rd option: add a `.bu` to AWS/GCE pages and open a JIRA ticket to fix
> > them
> > >> (and put a readme explaining why they are in `.bu` status (which
> should
> > >> prevent the build from picking them up), in essence, you're commenting
> > them
> > >> all out until someone can come around fix them.
> > >>
> > >> Further, I would put a holder page in their place that says something
> > like,
> > >> "This works, but we need someone to update the docs- check out JIRA
> XXXX
> > >> for more details", might get someone to clean em up sooner w a little
> > >> advertising.
> > >>
> > >> Just my .02
> > >>
> > >> I can't do full overhauls right now, but I could execute the "comment
> > out"
> > >> option if it comes to that.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:35 AM Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> +1 to drop the MapR page.
> > >>>
> > >>> For the other two I'm +0. I fully agree that the linked AWS and GCE
> > pages
> > >>> are in bad shape and don't relate to a component developed by the
> > >>> community. Do we have any numbers from Google Analytics on how
> popular
> > >>> those pages are? If they are somewhat popular, I would prefer to "fix
> > >> them"
> > >>> to be good starting points for users in those environments (probably
> by
> > >>> boiling them down to saying something simple such as "You should use
> > >>> FileSystem [...] and point it to [...].").
> > >>>
> > >>> – Ufuk
> > >>>
> > >>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:49 AM Till Rohrmann <[hidden email]>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>> If the community cannot manage to keep the vendor-specific
> > >> documentation
> > >>> up
> > >>>> to date, then I believe it is better to drop it. Hence +1 for the
> > >>> proposal.
> > >>>> Cheers,
> > >>>> Till
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:12 PM Aljoscha Krettek <
> [hidden email]>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>> +1
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Best,
> > >>>>> Aljoscha
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On 2. Dec 2019, at 18:38, Konstantin Knauf <
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>> +1 from my side to drop.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:34 PM Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>> Hi all,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I'd like to discuss dropping vendor-specific deployment
> > >>> documentation
> > >>>>> from
> > >>>>>>> Flink's official docs. To be clear, I am *NOT* suggesting we drop
> > >>> any of
> > >>>>>>> the filesystem documentation, but the following three pages.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> AWS:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/aws.html
> > >>>>>>> Google Compute Engine:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/gce_setup.html
> > >>>>>>> MapR:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/mapr_setup.html
> > >>>>>>> Unlike the filesystems, these docs do not refer to components
> > >>>>> maintained by
> > >>>>>>> the Apache Flink community, but external commercial services and
> > >>>>> products.
> > >>>>>>> None of these pages are well maintained and I do not think the
> > >>>>> open-source
> > >>>>>>> community can reasonably be expected to keep them up to date. In
> > >>>>>>> particular,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>    - The AWS page contains sparse information and mostly just
> links
> > >>> to
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>    official EMR docs.
> > >>>>>>>    - The Google Compute Engine page is out of date and the
> commands
> > >>> do
> > >>>>> not
> > >>>>>>>    work.
> > >>>>>>>    - MapR contains some relevant information but the community
> has
> > >>>>> already
> > >>>>>>>    dropped the MapR filesystem so I am not sure that deployment
> > >> would
> > >>>>> work
> > >>>>>>> (I
> > >>>>>>>    have not tested).
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> There is also a larger question of which vendor products should
> be
> > >>>>> included
> > >>>>>>> and which should not. That is why I would like to suggest
> dropping
> > >>> these
> > >>>>>>> pages and referring users to vendor maintained documentation
> > >>> whenever
> > >>>>> they
> > >>>>>>> are using one of these services.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Seth Wiesman
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Konstantin Knauf | Solutions Architect
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> [phone]
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Follow us @VervericaData Ververica <https://www.ververica.com/>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Join Flink Forward <https://flink-forward.org/> - The Apache
> Flink
> > >>>>>> Conference
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Stream Processing | Event Driven | Real Time
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Ververica GmbH | Invalidenstrasse 115, 10115 Berlin, Germany
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>> Ververica GmbH
> > >>>>>> Registered at Amtsgericht Charlottenburg: HRB 158244 B
> > >>>>>> Managing Directors: Timothy Alexander Steinert, Yip Park Tung
> > >> Jason,
> > >>> Ji
> > >>>>>> (Tony) Cheng
> > >>>>>
> >
> >
>

[Seth Wiesman-4]

@chesnay I'm not sure, however, I don't know what we could do to improve
the situation that wouldn't effectively be copying those vendors docs into
our own.

One option would be to do exactly that, but then I feel like we are
committing to tracking changes on those systems and I just don't know how
feasible that is.

I am personally still in favor of the removal of all three but as a
compromise, we could replace these pages with a "Vendor" page that just
links to the appropriate docs for these services. It could also include the
most basic Filesystem information that @ufuk mentioned. That still leaves
an open question of who we allow. Just the cloud providers or also others
like Cloudera and Ververica? For AWS only EMR or also Kinesis Data
Analytics, etc.



On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:25 AM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The bounce rate of these pages is not particularly bad.
>
> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 3:48 PM Trevor Grant <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > You can infer that by looking at the "bounce rate" eg someone gets to the
> > page, looks at it, realizes its trash and clicks "back".
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 8:46 AM Chesnay Schepler <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Question now is whether the numbers are so low because the docs aren't
> > > required or because they are so bad.
> > >
> > > On 05/12/2019 14:26, Robert Metzger wrote:
> > > > I just checked GA:
> > > >
> > > > All numbers are for the last month, independent of the Flink version:
> > > > aws.html: 918 pageviews
> > > > mapr_setup.html: 108 pageviews
> > > > gce_setup.html: 256 pageviews
> > > >
> > > > Some other deployment-related pages for reference:
> > > > yarn_setup: 4687
> > > > cluster: 4284
> > > > kubernetes: 3428
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 1:53 PM Trevor Grant <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Same as Ufuk (non-binding)
> > > >>
> > > >> In general, docs pages are great "first commits" to leave out there
> as
> > > >> newb-issues.
> > > >>
> > > >> Also though, worth checking how often people use the page (e.g. GA)
> > > >>
> > > >> 3rd option: add a `.bu` to AWS/GCE pages and open a JIRA ticket to
> fix
> > > them
> > > >> (and put a readme explaining why they are in `.bu` status (which
> > should
> > > >> prevent the build from picking them up), in essence, you're
> commenting
> > > them
> > > >> all out until someone can come around fix them.
> > > >>
> > > >> Further, I would put a holder page in their place that says
> something
> > > like,
> > > >> "This works, but we need someone to update the docs- check out JIRA
> > XXXX
> > > >> for more details", might get someone to clean em up sooner w a
> little
> > > >> advertising.
> > > >>
> > > >> Just my .02
> > > >>
> > > >> I can't do full overhauls right now, but I could execute the
> "comment
> > > out"
> > > >> option if it comes to that.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:35 AM Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> +1 to drop the MapR page.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> For the other two I'm +0. I fully agree that the linked AWS and GCE
> > > pages
> > > >>> are in bad shape and don't relate to a component developed by the
> > > >>> community. Do we have any numbers from Google Analytics on how
> > popular
> > > >>> those pages are? If they are somewhat popular, I would prefer to
> "fix
> > > >> them"
> > > >>> to be good starting points for users in those environments
> (probably
> > by
> > > >>> boiling them down to saying something simple such as "You should
> use
> > > >>> FileSystem [...] and point it to [...].").
> > > >>>
> > > >>> – Ufuk
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:49 AM Till Rohrmann <
> [hidden email]>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>> If the community cannot manage to keep the vendor-specific
> > > >> documentation
> > > >>> up
> > > >>>> to date, then I believe it is better to drop it. Hence +1 for the
> > > >>> proposal.
> > > >>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>> Till
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:12 PM Aljoscha Krettek <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>>> +1
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Best,
> > > >>>>> Aljoscha
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On 2. Dec 2019, at 18:38, Konstantin Knauf <
> > > >> [hidden email]
> > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>> +1 from my side to drop.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:34 PM Seth Wiesman <
> [hidden email]>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>> Hi all,
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I'd like to discuss dropping vendor-specific deployment
> > > >>> documentation
> > > >>>>> from
> > > >>>>>>> Flink's official docs. To be clear, I am *NOT* suggesting we
> drop
> > > >>> any of
> > > >>>>>>> the filesystem documentation, but the following three pages.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> AWS:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/aws.html
> > > >>>>>>> Google Compute Engine:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/gce_setup.html
> > > >>>>>>> MapR:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/mapr_setup.html
> > > >>>>>>> Unlike the filesystems, these docs do not refer to components
> > > >>>>> maintained by
> > > >>>>>>> the Apache Flink community, but external commercial services
> and
> > > >>>>> products.
> > > >>>>>>> None of these pages are well maintained and I do not think the
> > > >>>>> open-source
> > > >>>>>>> community can reasonably be expected to keep them up to date.
> In
> > > >>>>>>> particular,
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>    - The AWS page contains sparse information and mostly just
> > links
> > > >>> to
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>    official EMR docs.
> > > >>>>>>>    - The Google Compute Engine page is out of date and the
> > commands
> > > >>> do
> > > >>>>> not
> > > >>>>>>>    work.
> > > >>>>>>>    - MapR contains some relevant information but the community
> > has
> > > >>>>> already
> > > >>>>>>>    dropped the MapR filesystem so I am not sure that deployment
> > > >> would
> > > >>>>> work
> > > >>>>>>> (I
> > > >>>>>>>    have not tested).
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> There is also a larger question of which vendor products should
> > be
> > > >>>>> included
> > > >>>>>>> and which should not. That is why I would like to suggest
> > dropping
> > > >>> these
> > > >>>>>>> pages and referring users to vendor maintained documentation
> > > >>> whenever
> > > >>>>> they
> > > >>>>>>> are using one of these services.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Seth Wiesman
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Konstantin Knauf | Solutions Architect
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> [phone]
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Follow us @VervericaData Ververica <https://www.ververica.com/>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Join Flink Forward <https://flink-forward.org/> - The Apache
> > Flink
> > > >>>>>> Conference
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Stream Processing | Event Driven | Real Time
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Ververica GmbH | Invalidenstrasse 115, 10115 Berlin, Germany
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>> Ververica GmbH
> > > >>>>>> Registered at Amtsgericht Charlottenburg: HRB 158244 B
> > > >>>>>> Managing Directors: Timothy Alexander Steinert, Yip Park Tung
> > > >> Jason,
> > > >>> Ji
> > > >>>>>> (Tony) Cheng
> > > >>>>>
> > >
> > >
> >
>

[Trevor Grant]

If anyone wants to do a drive by PR link to vendor docs, just let them.
Just have the menu set up so it doesn't get too visually busy?

E.g.:
Deployment & Ops -> Cluster Deployment -> 3rd Party Vendors -> [ GCP, AWS,
Azure, Ververica, Oracle Cloud, IBM, Lightbend, Crazy Trevo's House of
Streaming, How to Submit to This List ]

where each one will link to a the vendor docs and pop the link open in a
new tab.

When a link goes down- comment it out and ping whoever made the
original PR.


On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 11:28 AM Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> @chesnay I'm not sure, however, I don't know what we could do to improve
> the situation that wouldn't effectively be copying those vendors docs into
> our own.
>
> One option would be to do exactly that, but then I feel like we are
> committing to tracking changes on those systems and I just don't know how
> feasible that is.
>
> I am personally still in favor of the removal of all three but as a
> compromise, we could replace these pages with a "Vendor" page that just
> links to the appropriate docs for these services. It could also include the
> most basic Filesystem information that @ufuk mentioned. That still leaves
> an open question of who we allow. Just the cloud providers or also others
> like Cloudera and Ververica? For AWS only EMR or also Kinesis Data
> Analytics, etc.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:25 AM Robert Metzger <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > The bounce rate of these pages is not particularly bad.
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 3:48 PM Trevor Grant <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > You can infer that by looking at the "bounce rate" eg someone gets to
> the
> > > page, looks at it, realizes its trash and clicks "back".
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 8:46 AM Chesnay Schepler <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Question now is whether the numbers are so low because the docs
> aren't
> > > > required or because they are so bad.
> > > >
> > > > On 05/12/2019 14:26, Robert Metzger wrote:
> > > > > I just checked GA:
> > > > >
> > > > > All numbers are for the last month, independent of the Flink
> version:
> > > > > aws.html: 918 pageviews
> > > > > mapr_setup.html: 108 pageviews
> > > > > gce_setup.html: 256 pageviews
> > > > >
> > > > > Some other deployment-related pages for reference:
> > > > > yarn_setup: 4687
> > > > > cluster: 4284
> > > > > kubernetes: 3428
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 1:53 PM Trevor Grant <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Same as Ufuk (non-binding)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> In general, docs pages are great "first commits" to leave out
> there
> > as
> > > > >> newb-issues.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Also though, worth checking how often people use the page (e.g.
> GA)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 3rd option: add a `.bu` to AWS/GCE pages and open a JIRA ticket to
> > fix
> > > > them
> > > > >> (and put a readme explaining why they are in `.bu` status (which
> > > should
> > > > >> prevent the build from picking them up), in essence, you're
> > commenting
> > > > them
> > > > >> all out until someone can come around fix them.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Further, I would put a holder page in their place that says
> > something
> > > > like,
> > > > >> "This works, but we need someone to update the docs- check out
> JIRA
> > > XXXX
> > > > >> for more details", might get someone to clean em up sooner w a
> > little
> > > > >> advertising.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Just my .02
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I can't do full overhauls right now, but I could execute the
> > "comment
> > > > out"
> > > > >> option if it comes to that.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:35 AM Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> +1 to drop the MapR page.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> For the other two I'm +0. I fully agree that the linked AWS and
> GCE
> > > > pages
> > > > >>> are in bad shape and don't relate to a component developed by the
> > > > >>> community. Do we have any numbers from Google Analytics on how
> > > popular
> > > > >>> those pages are? If they are somewhat popular, I would prefer to
> > "fix
> > > > >> them"
> > > > >>> to be good starting points for users in those environments
> > (probably
> > > by
> > > > >>> boiling them down to saying something simple such as "You should
> > use
> > > > >>> FileSystem [...] and point it to [...].").
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> – Ufuk
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:49 AM Till Rohrmann <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>>> If the community cannot manage to keep the vendor-specific
> > > > >> documentation
> > > > >>> up
> > > > >>>> to date, then I believe it is better to drop it. Hence +1 for
> the
> > > > >>> proposal.
> > > > >>>> Cheers,
> > > > >>>> Till
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:12 PM Aljoscha Krettek <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>> +1
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Best,
> > > > >>>>> Aljoscha
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> On 2. Dec 2019, at 18:38, Konstantin Knauf <
> > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>> +1 from my side to drop.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:34 PM Seth Wiesman <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>> Hi all,
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> I'd like to discuss dropping vendor-specific deployment
> > > > >>> documentation
> > > > >>>>> from
> > > > >>>>>>> Flink's official docs. To be clear, I am *NOT* suggesting we
> > drop
> > > > >>> any of
> > > > >>>>>>> the filesystem documentation, but the following three pages.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> AWS:
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/aws.html
> > > > >>>>>>> Google Compute Engine:
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/gce_setup.html
> > > > >>>>>>> MapR:
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://ci.apache.org/projects/flink/flink-docs-master/ops/deployment/mapr_setup.html
> > > > >>>>>>> Unlike the filesystems, these docs do not refer to components
> > > > >>>>> maintained by
> > > > >>>>>>> the Apache Flink community, but external commercial services
> > and
> > > > >>>>> products.
> > > > >>>>>>> None of these pages are well maintained and I do not think
> the
> > > > >>>>> open-source
> > > > >>>>>>> community can reasonably be expected to keep them up to date.
> > In
> > > > >>>>>>> particular,
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>    - The AWS page contains sparse information and mostly just
> > > links
> > > > >>> to
> > > > >>>>> the
> > > > >>>>>>>    official EMR docs.
> > > > >>>>>>>    - The Google Compute Engine page is out of date and the
> > > commands
> > > > >>> do
> > > > >>>>> not
> > > > >>>>>>>    work.
> > > > >>>>>>>    - MapR contains some relevant information but the
> community
> > > has
> > > > >>>>> already
> > > > >>>>>>>    dropped the MapR filesystem so I am not sure that
> deployment
> > > > >> would
> > > > >>>>> work
> > > > >>>>>>> (I
> > > > >>>>>>>    have not tested).
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> There is also a larger question of which vendor products
> should
> > > be
> > > > >>>>> included
> > > > >>>>>>> and which should not. That is why I would like to suggest
> > > dropping
> > > > >>> these
> > > > >>>>>>> pages and referring users to vendor maintained documentation
> > > > >>> whenever
> > > > >>>>> they
> > > > >>>>>>> are using one of these services.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Seth Wiesman
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Konstantin Knauf | Solutions Architect
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> [phone]
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Follow us @VervericaData Ververica <
> https://www.ververica.com/>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Join Flink Forward <https://flink-forward.org/> - The Apache
> > > Flink
> > > > >>>>>> Conference
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Stream Processing | Event Driven | Real Time
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Ververica GmbH | Invalidenstrasse 115, 10115 Berlin, Germany
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>> Ververica GmbH
> > > > >>>>>> Registered at Amtsgericht Charlottenburg: HRB 158244 B
> > > > >>>>>> Managing Directors: Timothy Alexander Steinert, Yip Park Tung
> > > > >> Jason,
> > > > >>> Ji
> > > > >>>>>> (Tony) Cheng
> > > > >>>>>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Ufuk Celebi-2]

Answers inline...

On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:28 PM Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> One option would be to do exactly that, but then I feel like we are
> committing to tracking changes on those systems and I just don't know how
> feasible that is.
>

I don't think that's feasible. It's bound to get out of sync.


> I am personally still in favor of the removal of all three but as a
> compromise, we could replace these pages with a "Vendor" page that just
> links to the appropriate docs for these services. It could also include the
> most basic Filesystem information that @ufuk mentioned. That still leaves
> an open question of who we allow. Just the cloud providers or also others
> like Cloudera and Ververica? For AWS only EMR or also Kinesis Data
> Analytics, etc.
>

Judging from Robert's numbers, I'm happy to drop these pages as well now.

Since there is no objection to remove those pages (and we wouldn't recycle
any content anyways for anything going forward), I suggest to continue with
the removal and keep the discussion of a new vendor page separate.

– Ufuk

[Seth Wiesman-4]

@uce Agreed. The discussion here seems to have died down. Since I assume
most people following this thread have gone home for the day, I'll leave
this for one more day and then remove the pages tomorrow.

Seth


On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 9:38 AM Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Answers inline...
>
> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:28 PM Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > One option would be to do exactly that, but then I feel like we are
> > committing to tracking changes on those systems and I just don't know how
> > feasible that is.
> >
>
> I don't think that's feasible. It's bound to get out of sync.
>
>
> > I am personally still in favor of the removal of all three but as a
> > compromise, we could replace these pages with a "Vendor" page that just
> > links to the appropriate docs for these services. It could also include
> the
> > most basic Filesystem information that @ufuk mentioned. That still leaves
> > an open question of who we allow. Just the cloud providers or also others
> > like Cloudera and Ververica? For AWS only EMR or also Kinesis Data
> > Analytics, etc.
> >
>
> Judging from Robert's numbers, I'm happy to drop these pages as well now.
>
> Since there is no objection to remove those pages (and we wouldn't recycle
> any content anyways for anything going forward), I suggest to continue with
> the removal and keep the discussion of a new vendor page separate.
>
> – Ufuk
>

[bowen.li]

+1 to drop vendor related docs. Links to vendors’ webpages should be enough

On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 08:15 Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> @uce Agreed. The discussion here seems to have died down. Since I assume
> most people following this thread have gone home for the day, I'll leave
> this for one more day and then remove the pages tomorrow.
>
> Seth
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 9:38 AM Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Answers inline...
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:28 PM Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > One option would be to do exactly that, but then I feel like we are
> > > committing to tracking changes on those systems and I just don't know
> how
> > > feasible that is.
> > >
> >
> > I don't think that's feasible. It's bound to get out of sync.
> >
> >
> > > I am personally still in favor of the removal of all three but as a
> > > compromise, we could replace these pages with a "Vendor" page that just
> > > links to the appropriate docs for these services. It could also include
> > the
> > > most basic Filesystem information that @ufuk mentioned. That still
> leaves
> > > an open question of who we allow. Just the cloud providers or also
> others
> > > like Cloudera and Ververica? For AWS only EMR or also Kinesis Data
> > > Analytics, etc.
> > >
> >
> > Judging from Robert's numbers, I'm happy to drop these pages as well now.
> >
> > Since there is no objection to remove those pages (and we wouldn't
> recycle
> > any content anyways for anything going forward), I suggest to continue
> with
> > the removal and keep the discussion of a new vendor page separate.
> >
> > – Ufuk
> >
>

[Robert Metzger]

This discussion has resulted in the following PR:
https://github.com/apache/flink/pull/10559

On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 10:14 PM Bowen Li <[hidden email]> wrote:

> +1 to drop vendor related docs. Links to vendors’ webpages should be enough
>
> On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 08:15 Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > @uce Agreed. The discussion here seems to have died down. Since I assume
> > most people following this thread have gone home for the day, I'll leave
> > this for one more day and then remove the pages tomorrow.
> >
> > Seth
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 9:38 AM Ufuk Celebi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Answers inline...
> > >
> > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:28 PM Seth Wiesman <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > One option would be to do exactly that, but then I feel like we are
> > > > committing to tracking changes on those systems and I just don't know
> > how
> > > > feasible that is.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I don't think that's feasible. It's bound to get out of sync.
> > >
> > >
> > > > I am personally still in favor of the removal of all three but as a
> > > > compromise, we could replace these pages with a "Vendor" page that
> just
> > > > links to the appropriate docs for these services. It could also
> include
> > > the
> > > > most basic Filesystem information that @ufuk mentioned. That still
> > leaves
> > > > an open question of who we allow. Just the cloud providers or also
> > others
> > > > like Cloudera and Ververica? For AWS only EMR or also Kinesis Data
> > > > Analytics, etc.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Judging from Robert's numbers, I'm happy to drop these pages as well
> now.
> > >
> > > Since there is no objection to remove those pages (and we wouldn't
> > recycle
> > > any content anyways for anything going forward), I suggest to continue
> > with
> > > the removal and keep the discussion of a new vendor page separate.
> > >
> > > – Ufuk
> > >
> >
>