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[DISCUSS] Add Japanese translation of the flink.apache.org website

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Robert Metzger

[DISCUSS] Add Japanese translation of the flink.apache.org website

Hi all,

we've received a pull request on flink-web.git for adding a Japanese
translation of the Flink website:
https://github.com/apache/flink-web/pull/346

Before we accept this PR, I believe we should have a discussion about it.

*Relevance*: Looking at Google analytics, our users are coming from China
(1.), US (2.), India (3.), Germany (4.), Japan (5.).
I'd say that is high enough to consider a Japanese translation.

*Reviewing*: I'm not aware of any committer who speaks Japanese. How would
we review this?
The contributor is offering to open follow-up pull requests, which I
believe is fine to bootstrap. Ideally we'll be able to attract more
contributors over time.

In my opinion, if we find one or two reviewers, I would give this a try.

What do you think?

Best,
Robert

dwysakowicz

Re: [DISCUSS] Add Japanese translation of the flink.apache.org website

I don't have a well defined opinion on adding new language. However, one
thing that I'd like to bring up to the attention on that occasion is it
is already quite cumbersome to update two versions of the docs.
Especially when we add new sections or change smaller parts of an
existing document. Right now if I add three sections in an English
version I have three additional places in the Chinese documents where I
need to paste that. With additional language it doubles, making it 6
places where I have to manually paste the added parts.

I'd be way more welcoming for adding a new language if we had a better
tooling/process for synchronizing changes across different languages. Or
if we agree the translations are best effort documents and we do not
update them when changing the English documents.

Best,

Dawid

On 08/06/2020 09:44, Robert Metzger wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> we've received a pull request on flink-web.git for adding a Japanese
> translation of the Flink website:
> https://github.com/apache/flink-web/pull/346
>
> Before we accept this PR, I believe we should have a discussion about it.
>
> *Relevance*: Looking at Google analytics, our users are coming from China
> (1.), US (2.), India (3.), Germany (4.), Japan (5.).
> I'd say that is high enough to consider a Japanese translation.
>
> *Reviewing*: I'm not aware of any committer who speaks Japanese. How would
> we review this?
> The contributor is offering to open follow-up pull requests, which I
> believe is fine to bootstrap. Ideally we'll be able to attract more
> contributors over time.
>
> In my opinion, if we find one or two reviewers, I would give this a try.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Best,
> Robert
>

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Xintong Song

Re: [DISCUSS] Add Japanese translation of the flink.apache.org website

I think Dawid has a good point. With or without another new language,
I'm +1 for trying to have a better tooling/process for synchronizing doc
changes.

Currently, it is not only hard for people who want to modify the English
docs, but also for people who try to update the translated copies
accordingly. I'm currently working on updating the Chinese translations for
the memory configuration documents, and I found it very hard to identify
the parts that need updates. The English docs are reorganized, contents are
moved across pages, and also small pieces of details are modified. It is
not always possible for people who work on the English docs to locate the
right place in the translations where the updated contents should be pasted.

My two cents on the potential approach. We might label the translation with
the commit id of the original doc where they are in synchronization, and
automatically display a warning on the translation if an out-of-sync is
detected.

Thank you~

Xintong Song

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 4:30 PM Dawid Wysakowicz <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I don't have a well defined opinion on adding new language. However, one
> thing that I'd like to bring up to the attention on that occasion is it
> is already quite cumbersome to update two versions of the docs.
> Especially when we add new sections or change smaller parts of an
> existing document. Right now if I add three sections in an English
> version I have three additional places in the Chinese documents where I
> need to paste that. With additional language it doubles, making it 6
> places where I have to manually paste the added parts.
>
> I'd be way more welcoming for adding a new language if we had a better
> tooling/process for synchronizing changes across different languages. Or
> if we agree the translations are best effort documents and we do not
> update them when changing the English documents.
>
> Best,
>
> Dawid
>
> On 08/06/2020 09:44, Robert Metzger wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > we've received a pull request on flink-web.git for adding a Japanese
> > translation of the Flink website:
> > https://github.com/apache/flink-web/pull/346
> >
> > Before we accept this PR, I believe we should have a discussion about it.
> >
> > *Relevance*: Looking at Google analytics, our users are coming from China
> > (1.), US (2.), India (3.), Germany (4.), Japan (5.).
> > I'd say that is high enough to consider a Japanese translation.
> >
> > *Reviewing*: I'm not aware of any committer who speaks Japanese. How
> would
> > we review this?
> > The contributor is offering to open follow-up pull requests, which I
> > believe is fine to bootstrap. Ideally we'll be able to attract more
> > contributors over time.
> >
> > In my opinion, if we find one or two reviewers, I would give this a try.
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Best,
> > Robert
> >
>
>

Marta Paes Moreira

Re: [DISCUSS] Add Japanese translation of the flink.apache.org website

Thanks for bringing this PR to our attention, Robert!

Like Dawid and Xintong, I'm concerned that adding a new language will make
it unbearable to ensure docs synchronization. Best-effort maintenance of
non-english docs may also result in a bad documentation experience for
users, and this is something that we should be especially careful about in
locations where Flink adoption might still be in an early phase, IMO. At
the same time, I understand that having a japanese translation would
probably be very helpful for Japanese-speaking users and help with Flink
adoption in Japan.

I see this happening for other up-and-coming locations (e.g.
Spanish-speaking countries) in the future, so in order to be able to accept
these contributions I'm also of the opinion that we first need an efficient
synchronization tool. Maybe it would be worth investigating how other ASF
projects are dealing with this.

Marta

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 11:46 AM Xintong Song <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think Dawid has a good point. With or without another new language,
> I'm +1 for trying to have a better tooling/process for synchronizing doc
> changes.
>
> Currently, it is not only hard for people who want to modify the English
> docs, but also for people who try to update the translated copies
> accordingly. I'm currently working on updating the Chinese translations for
> the memory configuration documents, and I found it very hard to identify
> the parts that need updates. The English docs are reorganized, contents are
> moved across pages, and also small pieces of details are modified. It is
> not always possible for people who work on the English docs to locate the
> right place in the translations where the updated contents should be
> pasted.
>
> My two cents on the potential approach. We might label the translation with
> the commit id of the original doc where they are in synchronization, and
> automatically display a warning on the translation if an out-of-sync is
> detected.
>
> Thank you~
>
> Xintong Song
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 4:30 PM Dawid Wysakowicz <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I don't have a well defined opinion on adding new language. However, one
> > thing that I'd like to bring up to the attention on that occasion is it
> > is already quite cumbersome to update two versions of the docs.
> > Especially when we add new sections or change smaller parts of an
> > existing document. Right now if I add three sections in an English
> > version I have three additional places in the Chinese documents where I
> > need to paste that. With additional language it doubles, making it 6
> > places where I have to manually paste the added parts.
> >
> > I'd be way more welcoming for adding a new language if we had a better
> > tooling/process for synchronizing changes across different languages. Or
> > if we agree the translations are best effort documents and we do not
> > update them when changing the English documents.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Dawid
> >
> > On 08/06/2020 09:44, Robert Metzger wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > we've received a pull request on flink-web.git for adding a Japanese
> > > translation of the Flink website:
> > > https://github.com/apache/flink-web/pull/346
> > >
> > > Before we accept this PR, I believe we should have a discussion about
> it.
> > >
> > > *Relevance*: Looking at Google analytics, our users are coming from
> China
> > > (1.), US (2.), India (3.), Germany (4.), Japan (5.).
> > > I'd say that is high enough to consider a Japanese translation.
> > >
> > > *Reviewing*: I'm not aware of any committer who speaks Japanese. How
> > would
> > > we review this?
> > > The contributor is offering to open follow-up pull requests, which I
> > > believe is fine to bootstrap. Ideally we'll be able to attract more
> > > contributors over time.
> > >
> > > In my opinion, if we find one or two reviewers, I would give this a
> try.
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Robert
> > >
> >
> >
>

Jark Wu-2

Re: [DISCUSS] Add Japanese translation of the flink.apache.org website

I agree with Dawid and others' opinions.

We may not have enough resources to maintain more languages.
Maybe it's time to investigate better translation/synchronization tools
again.

I want to share some background about the current translation process. In
the initial proposal of Chinese translation FLIP-35 [1],
we have considered Docusaurus/Crowdin as the localization tool, but it
seems that Crowdin doesn't fit well with Jekyll (Liquid codes).
But it's been a year and a half, maybe it's time to re-investigate them or
other tools.

Here is the list of how other ASF projects are dealing translation of what
I know:
- Apache Pulsar uses Crowdin: https://github.com/apache/pulsar-translation
- Apache Kylin: the similar way of Flink:
https://github.com/apache/kylin/tree/document/website
- Apache RocketMQ: a separate repository, synchronize manually and
periodically: https://github.com/apache/rocketmq/tree/master/docs/cn

Here is the list of localization tool of what I know:
- Docusaurus: https://docusaurus.io/
- Crowdin: https://crowdin.com/
- GitLocalize: https://gitlocalize.com/

Best,
Jark

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 16:24, Marta Paes Moreira <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks for bringing this PR to our attention, Robert!
>
> Like Dawid and Xintong, I'm concerned that adding a new language will make
> it unbearable to ensure docs synchronization. Best-effort maintenance of
> non-english docs may also result in a bad documentation experience for
> users, and this is something that we should be especially careful about in
> locations where Flink adoption might still be in an early phase, IMO. At
> the same time, I understand that having a japanese translation would
> probably be very helpful for Japanese-speaking users and help with Flink
> adoption in Japan.
>
> I see this happening for other up-and-coming locations (e.g.
> Spanish-speaking countries) in the future, so in order to be able to accept
> these contributions I'm also of the opinion that we first need an efficient
> synchronization tool. Maybe it would be worth investigating how other ASF
> projects are dealing with this.
>
> Marta
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 11:46 AM Xintong Song <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I think Dawid has a good point. With or without another new language,
> > I'm +1 for trying to have a better tooling/process for synchronizing doc
> > changes.
> >
> > Currently, it is not only hard for people who want to modify the English
> > docs, but also for people who try to update the translated copies
> > accordingly. I'm currently working on updating the Chinese translations
> for
> > the memory configuration documents, and I found it very hard to identify
> > the parts that need updates. The English docs are reorganized, contents
> are
> > moved across pages, and also small pieces of details are modified. It is
> > not always possible for people who work on the English docs to locate the
> > right place in the translations where the updated contents should be
> > pasted.
> >
> > My two cents on the potential approach. We might label the translation
> with
> > the commit id of the original doc where they are in synchronization, and
> > automatically display a warning on the translation if an out-of-sync is
> > detected.
> >
> > Thank you~
> >
> > Xintong Song
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 4:30 PM Dawid Wysakowicz <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I don't have a well defined opinion on adding new language. However,
> one
> > > thing that I'd like to bring up to the attention on that occasion is it
> > > is already quite cumbersome to update two versions of the docs.
> > > Especially when we add new sections or change smaller parts of an
> > > existing document. Right now if I add three sections in an English
> > > version I have three additional places in the Chinese documents where I
> > > need to paste that. With additional language it doubles, making it 6
> > > places where I have to manually paste the added parts.
> > >
> > > I'd be way more welcoming for adding a new language if we had a better
> > > tooling/process for synchronizing changes across different languages.
> Or
> > > if we agree the translations are best effort documents and we do not
> > > update them when changing the English documents.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Dawid
> > >
> > > On 08/06/2020 09:44, Robert Metzger wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > we've received a pull request on flink-web.git for adding a Japanese
> > > > translation of the Flink website:
> > > > https://github.com/apache/flink-web/pull/346
> > > >
> > > > Before we accept this PR, I believe we should have a discussion about
> > it.
> > > >
> > > > *Relevance*: Looking at Google analytics, our users are coming from
> > China
> > > > (1.), US (2.), India (3.), Germany (4.), Japan (5.).
> > > > I'd say that is high enough to consider a Japanese translation.
> > > >
> > > > *Reviewing*: I'm not aware of any committer who speaks Japanese. How
> > > would
> > > > we review this?
> > > > The contributor is offering to open follow-up pull requests, which I
> > > > believe is fine to bootstrap. Ideally we'll be able to attract more
> > > > contributors over time.
> > > >
> > > > In my opinion, if we find one or two reviewers, I would give this a
> > try.
> > > >
> > > > What do you think?
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Robert
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Congxian Qiu

Re: [DISCUSS] Add Japanese translation of the flink.apache.org website

Hi

Thanks for bringing this up, Robert.

I agree we may need to investigate better translation/synchronization tools
again.

I'll share some experience when translating the documentation or reviewing
the translation.
1. Translate documentation using the current procedure needs a lot of
resources to keep the translated version fresh, I'm glad that we have so
many contributors who want to translate the documentation to Chinese.
2. The documentation may out of sync between the English version and the
translated version, this needs the reviewer to know about Flink and the
English version doc very well(especially when the documentation has been
restructured)

Best,
Congxian

Jark Wu <[hidden email]> 于2020年6月9日周二下午6:02写道：

> I agree with Dawid and others' opinions.
>
> We may not have enough resources to maintain more languages.
> Maybe it's time to investigate better translation/synchronization tools
> again.
>
> I want to share some background about the current translation process. In
> the initial proposal of Chinese translation FLIP-35 [1],
> we have considered Docusaurus/Crowdin as the localization tool, but it
> seems that Crowdin doesn't fit well with Jekyll (Liquid codes).
> But it's been a year and a half, maybe it's time to re-investigate them or
> other tools.
>
> Here is the list of how other ASF projects are dealing translation of what
> I know:
> - Apache Pulsar uses Crowdin: https://github.com/apache/pulsar-translation
> - Apache Kylin: the similar way of Flink:
> https://github.com/apache/kylin/tree/document/website
> - Apache RocketMQ: a separate repository, synchronize manually and
> periodically: https://github.com/apache/rocketmq/tree/master/docs/cn
>
> Here is the list of localization tool of what I know:
> - Docusaurus: https://docusaurus.io/
> - Crowdin: https://crowdin.com/
> - GitLocalize: https://gitlocalize.com/
>
> Best,
> Jark
>
> On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 16:24, Marta Paes Moreira <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for bringing this PR to our attention, Robert!
> >
> > Like Dawid and Xintong, I'm concerned that adding a new language will
> make
> > it unbearable to ensure docs synchronization. Best-effort maintenance of
> > non-english docs may also result in a bad documentation experience for
> > users, and this is something that we should be especially careful about
> in
> > locations where Flink adoption might still be in an early phase, IMO. At
> > the same time, I understand that having a japanese translation would
> > probably be very helpful for Japanese-speaking users and help with Flink
> > adoption in Japan.
> >
> > I see this happening for other up-and-coming locations (e.g.
> > Spanish-speaking countries) in the future, so in order to be able to
> accept
> > these contributions I'm also of the opinion that we first need an
> efficient
> > synchronization tool. Maybe it would be worth investigating how other ASF
> > projects are dealing with this.
> >
> > Marta
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 11:46 AM Xintong Song <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I think Dawid has a good point. With or without another new language,
> > > I'm +1 for trying to have a better tooling/process for synchronizing
> doc
> > > changes.
> > >
> > > Currently, it is not only hard for people who want to modify the
> English
> > > docs, but also for people who try to update the translated copies
> > > accordingly. I'm currently working on updating the Chinese translations
> > for
> > > the memory configuration documents, and I found it very hard to
> identify
> > > the parts that need updates. The English docs are reorganized, contents
> > are
> > > moved across pages, and also small pieces of details are modified. It
> is
> > > not always possible for people who work on the English docs to locate
> the
> > > right place in the translations where the updated contents should be
> > > pasted.
> > >
> > > My two cents on the potential approach. We might label the translation
> > with
> > > the commit id of the original doc where they are in synchronization,
> and
> > > automatically display a warning on the translation if an out-of-sync is
> > > detected.
> > >
> > > Thank you~
> > >
> > > Xintong Song
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 4:30 PM Dawid Wysakowicz <
> [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I don't have a well defined opinion on adding new language. However,
> > one
> > > > thing that I'd like to bring up to the attention on that occasion is
> it
> > > > is already quite cumbersome to update two versions of the docs.
> > > > Especially when we add new sections or change smaller parts of an
> > > > existing document. Right now if I add three sections in an English
> > > > version I have three additional places in the Chinese documents
> where I
> > > > need to paste that. With additional language it doubles, making it 6
> > > > places where I have to manually paste the added parts.
> > > >
> > > > I'd be way more welcoming for adding a new language if we had a
> better
> > > > tooling/process for synchronizing changes across different languages.
> > Or
> > > > if we agree the translations are best effort documents and we do not
> > > > update them when changing the English documents.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >
> > > > Dawid
> > > >
> > > > On 08/06/2020 09:44, Robert Metzger wrote:
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > we've received a pull request on flink-web.git for adding a
> Japanese
> > > > > translation of the Flink website:
> > > > > https://github.com/apache/flink-web/pull/346
> > > > >
> > > > > Before we accept this PR, I believe we should have a discussion
> about
> > > it.
> > > > >
> > > > > *Relevance*: Looking at Google analytics, our users are coming from
> > > China
> > > > > (1.), US (2.), India (3.), Germany (4.), Japan (5.).
> > > > > I'd say that is high enough to consider a Japanese translation.
> > > > >
> > > > > *Reviewing*: I'm not aware of any committer who speaks Japanese.
> How
> > > > would
> > > > > we review this?
> > > > > The contributor is offering to open follow-up pull requests, which
> I
> > > > > believe is fine to bootstrap. Ideally we'll be able to attract more
> > > > > contributors over time.
> > > > >
> > > > > In my opinion, if we find one or two reviewers, I would give this a
> > > try.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you think?
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Robert
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Marta Paes Moreira

Re: [DISCUSS] Add Japanese translation of the flink.apache.org website

I had a second look at the PR and maybe it'd be important to clarify the
scope.

It seems to only target the website and, if that's the case, then
synchronization might be less of an issue as the core of the website is
pretty static. I'm not sure how useful it is to have a translated website
without any other kind of support (e.g. mailing list, documentation) in the
same language, but the contributor might be able to shed some light on this.

Just wanted to amend my original reply as it was pretty blindsided by the
previous comments. It'd be worth understanding the end goal of the
contribution first.

Thanks,

Marta

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 2:22 PM Congxian Qiu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Thanks for bringing this up, Robert.
>
> I agree we may need to investigate better translation/synchronization tools
> again.
>
> I'll share some experience when translating the documentation or reviewing
> the translation.
> 1. Translate documentation using the current procedure needs a lot of
> resources to keep the translated version fresh, I'm glad that we have so
> many contributors who want to translate the documentation to Chinese.
> 2. The documentation may out of sync between the English version and the
> translated version, this needs the reviewer to know about Flink and the
> English version doc very well(especially when the documentation has been
> restructured)
>
> Best,
> Congxian
>
>
> Jark Wu <[hidden email]> 于2020年6月9日周二下午6:02写道：
>
> > I agree with Dawid and others' opinions.
> >
> > We may not have enough resources to maintain more languages.
> > Maybe it's time to investigate better translation/synchronization tools
> > again.
> >
> > I want to share some background about the current translation process. In
> > the initial proposal of Chinese translation FLIP-35 [1],
> > we have considered Docusaurus/Crowdin as the localization tool, but it
> > seems that Crowdin doesn't fit well with Jekyll (Liquid codes).
> > But it's been a year and a half, maybe it's time to re-investigate them
> or
> > other tools.
> >
> > Here is the list of how other ASF projects are dealing translation of
> what
> > I know:
> > - Apache Pulsar uses Crowdin:
> https://github.com/apache/pulsar-translation
> > - Apache Kylin: the similar way of Flink:
> > https://github.com/apache/kylin/tree/document/website
> > - Apache RocketMQ: a separate repository, synchronize manually and
> > periodically: https://github.com/apache/rocketmq/tree/master/docs/cn
> >
> > Here is the list of localization tool of what I know:
> > - Docusaurus: https://docusaurus.io/
> > - Crowdin: https://crowdin.com/
> > - GitLocalize: https://gitlocalize.com/
> >
> > Best,
> > Jark
> >
> > On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 16:24, Marta Paes Moreira <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for bringing this PR to our attention, Robert!
> > >
> > > Like Dawid and Xintong, I'm concerned that adding a new language will
> > make
> > > it unbearable to ensure docs synchronization. Best-effort maintenance
> of
> > > non-english docs may also result in a bad documentation experience for
> > > users, and this is something that we should be especially careful about
> > in
> > > locations where Flink adoption might still be in an early phase, IMO.
> At
> > > the same time, I understand that having a japanese translation would
> > > probably be very helpful for Japanese-speaking users and help with
> Flink
> > > adoption in Japan.
> > >
> > > I see this happening for other up-and-coming locations (e.g.
> > > Spanish-speaking countries) in the future, so in order to be able to
> > accept
> > > these contributions I'm also of the opinion that we first need an
> > efficient
> > > synchronization tool. Maybe it would be worth investigating how other
> ASF
> > > projects are dealing with this.
> > >
> > > Marta
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 11:46 AM Xintong Song <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think Dawid has a good point. With or without another new language,
> > > > I'm +1 for trying to have a better tooling/process for synchronizing
> > doc
> > > > changes.
> > > >
> > > > Currently, it is not only hard for people who want to modify the
> > English
> > > > docs, but also for people who try to update the translated copies
> > > > accordingly. I'm currently working on updating the Chinese
> translations
> > > for
> > > > the memory configuration documents, and I found it very hard to
> > identify
> > > > the parts that need updates. The English docs are reorganized,
> contents
> > > are
> > > > moved across pages, and also small pieces of details are modified. It
> > is
> > > > not always possible for people who work on the English docs to locate
> > the
> > > > right place in the translations where the updated contents should be
> > > > pasted.
> > > >
> > > > My two cents on the potential approach. We might label the
> translation
> > > with
> > > > the commit id of the original doc where they are in synchronization,
> > and
> > > > automatically display a warning on the translation if an out-of-sync
> is
> > > > detected.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you~
> > > >
> > > > Xintong Song
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 4:30 PM Dawid Wysakowicz <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I don't have a well defined opinion on adding new language.
> However,
> > > one
> > > > > thing that I'd like to bring up to the attention on that occasion
> is
> > it
> > > > > is already quite cumbersome to update two versions of the docs.
> > > > > Especially when we add new sections or change smaller parts of an
> > > > > existing document. Right now if I add three sections in an English
> > > > > version I have three additional places in the Chinese documents
> > where I
> > > > > need to paste that. With additional language it doubles, making it
> 6
> > > > > places where I have to manually paste the added parts.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd be way more welcoming for adding a new language if we had a
> > better
> > > > > tooling/process for synchronizing changes across different
> languages.
> > > Or
> > > > > if we agree the translations are best effort documents and we do
> not
> > > > > update them when changing the English documents.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > >
> > > > > Dawid
> > > > >
> > > > > On 08/06/2020 09:44, Robert Metzger wrote:
> > > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > we've received a pull request on flink-web.git for adding a
> > Japanese
> > > > > > translation of the Flink website:
> > > > > > https://github.com/apache/flink-web/pull/346
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Before we accept this PR, I believe we should have a discussion
> > about
> > > > it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *Relevance*: Looking at Google analytics, our users are coming
> from
> > > > China
> > > > > > (1.), US (2.), India (3.), Germany (4.), Japan (5.).
> > > > > > I'd say that is high enough to consider a Japanese translation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *Reviewing*: I'm not aware of any committer who speaks Japanese.
> > How
> > > > > would
> > > > > > we review this?
> > > > > > The contributor is offering to open follow-up pull requests,
> which
> > I
> > > > > > believe is fine to bootstrap. Ideally we'll be able to attract
> more
> > > > > > contributors over time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my opinion, if we find one or two reviewers, I would give
> this a
> > > > try.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > Robert
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Yun Tang

Re: [DISCUSS] Add Japanese translation of the flink.apache.org website

Hi

I think supporting website with another language should be okay. However, I'm afraid Flink community lacks of resources
to maintain technical documentations of another languages currently.

From my experiences of translating documentation to Chinese since the past year, I found
Chinese documentation is easy to be out-of-date and containing broken links. Some developers
might only update English version and forget to update the related Chinese version.

Since Jark talked about re-investigating tools for translating, I just want to share some painful experiences
when translating documentations.
First of all, I think code review should be totally different from doc review. Github lacks such kind of power
to make the markdown review more readable, we often need to read a long line without wrapping and give advice for
just some of the characters.
Secondly, user who wants to contributes cannot leverage any given powerful tool.

I think Crodwin might be a good choice.

1. Many popular projects already use this: node.js [1], gitlab [2], Minecraft [3].
2. This tool is free for open-source project [4]

[1] https://crowdin.com/project/nodejs-website
[2] https://crowdin.com/project/gitlab-ee
[3] https://crowdin.com/project/minecraft
[4] https://crowdin.com/page/open-source-project-setup-request

Best
Yun Tang

________________________________
From: Marta Paes Moreira <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 22:13
To: dev <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Add Japanese translation of the flink.apache.org website

I had a second look at the PR and maybe it'd be important to clarify the
scope.

It seems to only target the website and, if that's the case, then
synchronization might be less of an issue as the core of the website is
pretty static. I'm not sure how useful it is to have a translated website
without any other kind of support (e.g. mailing list, documentation) in the
same language, but the contributor might be able to shed some light on this.

Just wanted to amend my original reply as it was pretty blindsided by the
previous comments. It'd be worth understanding the end goal of the
contribution first.

Thanks,

Marta

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 2:22 PM Congxian Qiu <[hidden email]> wrote:

Congxian Qiu

Re: [DISCUSS] Add Japanese translation of the flink.apache.org website

Share some experience for the current translation(and review) process from
my side. for documentation review, we can pull the patch locally and set up
a local server[1][2], after that, we can reference the rendered
documentation in `localhost:4000`

[1]
https://flink.apache.org/contributing/contribute-documentation.html#update-or-extend-the-documentation
[2]
https://flink.apache.org/contributing/improve-website.html#update-or-extend-the-documentation

Best,
Congxian

Yun Tang <[hidden email]> 于2020年6月9日周二下午10:34写道：

> Hi
>
> I think supporting website with another language should be okay. However,
> I'm afraid Flink community lacks of resources
> to maintain technical documentations of another languages currently.
>
> From my experiences of translating documentation to Chinese since the past
> year, I found
> Chinese documentation is easy to be out-of-date and containing broken
> links. Some developers
> might only update English version and forget to update the related Chinese
> version.
>
> Since Jark talked about re-investigating tools for translating, I just
> want to share some painful experiences
> when translating documentations.
> First of all, I think code review should be totally different from doc
> review. Github lacks such kind of power
> to make the markdown review more readable, we often need to read a long
> line without wrapping and give advice for
> just some of the characters.
> Secondly, user who wants to contributes cannot leverage any given powerful
> tool.
>
> I think Crodwin might be a good choice.
>
> 1. Many popular projects already use this: node.js [1], gitlab [2],
> Minecraft [3].
> 2. This tool is free for open-source project [4]
>
> [1] https://crowdin.com/project/nodejs-website
> [2] https://crowdin.com/project/gitlab-ee
> [3] https://crowdin.com/project/minecraft
> [4] https://crowdin.com/page/open-source-project-setup-request
>
> Best
> Yun Tang
>
> ________________________________
> From: Marta Paes Moreira <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 22:13
> To: dev <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Add Japanese translation of the flink.apache.org
> website
>
> I had a second look at the PR and maybe it'd be important to clarify the
> scope.
>
> It seems to only target the website and, if that's the case, then
> synchronization might be less of an issue as the core of the website is
> pretty static. I'm not sure how useful it is to have a translated website
> without any other kind of support (e.g. mailing list, documentation) in the
> same language, but the contributor might be able to shed some light on
> this.
>
> Just wanted to amend my original reply as it was pretty blindsided by the
> previous comments. It'd be worth understanding the end goal of the
> contribution first.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Marta
>
> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 2:22 PM Congxian Qiu <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > Thanks for bringing this up, Robert.
> >
> > I agree we may need to investigate better translation/synchronization
> tools
> > again.
> >
> > I'll share some experience when translating the documentation or
> reviewing
> > the translation.
> > 1. Translate documentation using the current procedure needs a lot of
> > resources to keep the translated version fresh, I'm glad that we have so
> > many contributors who want to translate the documentation to Chinese.
> > 2. The documentation may out of sync between the English version and the
> > translated version, this needs the reviewer to know about Flink and the
> > English version doc very well(especially when the documentation has been
> > restructured)
> >
> > Best,
> > Congxian
> >
> >
> > Jark Wu <[hidden email]> 于2020年6月9日周二下午6:02写道：
> >
> > > I agree with Dawid and others' opinions.
> > >
> > > We may not have enough resources to maintain more languages.
> > > Maybe it's time to investigate better translation/synchronization tools
> > > again.
> > >
> > > I want to share some background about the current translation process.
> In
> > > the initial proposal of Chinese translation FLIP-35 [1],
> > > we have considered Docusaurus/Crowdin as the localization tool, but it
> > > seems that Crowdin doesn't fit well with Jekyll (Liquid codes).
> > > But it's been a year and a half, maybe it's time to re-investigate them
> > or
> > > other tools.
> > >
> > > Here is the list of how other ASF projects are dealing translation of
> > what
> > > I know:
> > > - Apache Pulsar uses Crowdin:
> > https://github.com/apache/pulsar-translation
> > > - Apache Kylin: the similar way of Flink:
> > > https://github.com/apache/kylin/tree/document/website
> > > - Apache RocketMQ: a separate repository, synchronize manually and
> > > periodically: https://github.com/apache/rocketmq/tree/master/docs/cn
> > >
> > > Here is the list of localization tool of what I know:
> > > - Docusaurus: https://docusaurus.io/
> > > - Crowdin: https://crowdin.com/
> > > - GitLocalize: https://gitlocalize.com/
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Jark
> > >
> > > On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 16:24, Marta Paes Moreira <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks for bringing this PR to our attention, Robert!
> > > >
> > > > Like Dawid and Xintong, I'm concerned that adding a new language will
> > > make
> > > > it unbearable to ensure docs synchronization. Best-effort maintenance
> > of
> > > > non-english docs may also result in a bad documentation experience
> for
> > > > users, and this is something that we should be especially careful
> about
> > > in
> > > > locations where Flink adoption might still be in an early phase, IMO.
> > At
> > > > the same time, I understand that having a japanese translation would
> > > > probably be very helpful for Japanese-speaking users and help with
> > Flink
> > > > adoption in Japan.
> > > >
> > > > I see this happening for other up-and-coming locations (e.g.
> > > > Spanish-speaking countries) in the future, so in order to be able to
> > > accept
> > > > these contributions I'm also of the opinion that we first need an
> > > efficient
> > > > synchronization tool. Maybe it would be worth investigating how other
> > ASF
> > > > projects are dealing with this.
> > > >
> > > > Marta
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 11:46 AM Xintong Song <[hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I think Dawid has a good point. With or without another new
> language,
> > > > > I'm +1 for trying to have a better tooling/process for
> synchronizing
> > > doc
> > > > > changes.
> > > > >
> > > > > Currently, it is not only hard for people who want to modify the
> > > English
> > > > > docs, but also for people who try to update the translated copies
> > > > > accordingly. I'm currently working on updating the Chinese
> > translations
> > > > for
> > > > > the memory configuration documents, and I found it very hard to
> > > identify
> > > > > the parts that need updates. The English docs are reorganized,
> > contents
> > > > are
> > > > > moved across pages, and also small pieces of details are modified.
> It
> > > is
> > > > > not always possible for people who work on the English docs to
> locate
> > > the
> > > > > right place in the translations where the updated contents should
> be
> > > > > pasted.
> > > > >
> > > > > My two cents on the potential approach. We might label the
> > translation
> > > > with
> > > > > the commit id of the original doc where they are in
> synchronization,
> > > and
> > > > > automatically display a warning on the translation if an
> out-of-sync
> > is
> > > > > detected.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you~
> > > > >
> > > > > Xintong Song
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 4:30 PM Dawid Wysakowicz <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I don't have a well defined opinion on adding new language.
> > However,
> > > > one
> > > > > > thing that I'd like to bring up to the attention on that occasion
> > is
> > > it
> > > > > > is already quite cumbersome to update two versions of the docs.
> > > > > > Especially when we add new sections or change smaller parts of an
> > > > > > existing document. Right now if I add three sections in an
> English
> > > > > > version I have three additional places in the Chinese documents
> > > where I
> > > > > > need to paste that. With additional language it doubles, making
> it
> > 6
> > > > > > places where I have to manually paste the added parts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'd be way more welcoming for adding a new language if we had a
> > > better
> > > > > > tooling/process for synchronizing changes across different
> > languages.
> > > > Or
> > > > > > if we agree the translations are best effort documents and we do
> > not
> > > > > > update them when changing the English documents.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dawid
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 08/06/2020 09:44, Robert Metzger wrote:
> > > > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > we've received a pull request on flink-web.git for adding a
> > > Japanese
> > > > > > > translation of the Flink website:
> > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/flink-web/pull/346
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Before we accept this PR, I believe we should have a discussion
> > > about
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *Relevance*: Looking at Google analytics, our users are coming
> > from
> > > > > China
> > > > > > > (1.), US (2.), India (3.), Germany (4.), Japan (5.).
> > > > > > > I'd say that is high enough to consider a Japanese translation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *Reviewing*: I'm not aware of any committer who speaks
> Japanese.
> > > How
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > we review this?
> > > > > > > The contributor is offering to open follow-up pull requests,
> > which
> > > I
> > > > > > > believe is fine to bootstrap. Ideally we'll be able to attract
> > more
> > > > > > > contributors over time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In my opinion, if we find one or two reviewers, I would give
> > this a
> > > > > try.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > Robert
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Robert Metzger

Re: [DISCUSS] Add Japanese translation of the flink.apache.org website

Thank you all for your comments!

It seems that we don't have anybody in our community that speaks Japanese,
which will make the review for us difficult anyways. In particular
initially, it is probably important to make sure we are using the right
words for certain concepts in Flink, similar to Chinese [1].

Secondly, it seems that this thread has uncovered a lot of issues around
our current translation process. It sounds like maintaining the docs in two
languages is really painful, and we need to revisit our tooling.

For the tooling, the following ideas were brought up:
a) Xintong's idea to have some custom tooling tracking changes based on a
commit sha
b) Jark's list of tools (out of which Crowdin seems interesting, in
particular because it has been implemented by another Apache project
already)

I want to throw in
c) We look for a new documentation generation tool? Jekyll seems very slow,
and Jark raised concerns regarding its compatibility with Crowdin.

As next steps, I propose
a) we need to find somebody in the community who wants to invest some time
to researching translation tools (or a new docs generation tool). *Who
wants to look into that?*
b) a new discussion thread to follow up.

For the proposed Japanese translation, I will summarize this discussion in
the PR, and put the PR on hold.

Best,
Robert

[1]
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/Flink+Translation+Specifications

On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 4:07 AM Congxian Qiu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Share some experience for the current translation(and review) process from
> my side. for documentation review, we can pull the patch locally and set up
> a local server[1][2], after that, we can reference the rendered
> documentation in `localhost:4000`
>
> [1]
>
> https://flink.apache.org/contributing/contribute-documentation.html#update-or-extend-the-documentation
> [2]
>
> https://flink.apache.org/contributing/improve-website.html#update-or-extend-the-documentation
>
> Best,
> Congxian
>
>
> Yun Tang <[hidden email]> 于2020年6月9日周二下午10:34写道：
>
> > Hi
> >
> > I think supporting website with another language should be okay. However,
> > I'm afraid Flink community lacks of resources
> > to maintain technical documentations of another languages currently.
> >
> > From my experiences of translating documentation to Chinese since the
> past
> > year, I found
> > Chinese documentation is easy to be out-of-date and containing broken
> > links. Some developers
> > might only update English version and forget to update the related
> Chinese
> > version.
> >
> > Since Jark talked about re-investigating tools for translating, I just
> > want to share some painful experiences
> > when translating documentations.
> > First of all, I think code review should be totally different from doc
> > review. Github lacks such kind of power
> > to make the markdown review more readable, we often need to read a long
> > line without wrapping and give advice for
> > just some of the characters.
> > Secondly, user who wants to contributes cannot leverage any given
> powerful
> > tool.
> >
> > I think Crodwin might be a good choice.
> >
> > 1. Many popular projects already use this: node.js [1], gitlab [2],
> > Minecraft [3].
> > 2. This tool is free for open-source project [4]
> >
> > [1] https://crowdin.com/project/nodejs-website
> > [2] https://crowdin.com/project/gitlab-ee
> > [3] https://crowdin.com/project/minecraft
> > [4] https://crowdin.com/page/open-source-project-setup-request
> >
> > Best
> > Yun Tang
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Marta Paes Moreira <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 22:13
> > To: dev <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Add Japanese translation of the flink.apache.org
> > website
> >
> > I had a second look at the PR and maybe it'd be important to clarify the
> > scope.
> >
> > It seems to only target the website and, if that's the case, then
> > synchronization might be less of an issue as the core of the website is
> > pretty static. I'm not sure how useful it is to have a translated website
> > without any other kind of support (e.g. mailing list, documentation) in
> the
> > same language, but the contributor might be able to shed some light on
> > this.
> >
> > Just wanted to amend my original reply as it was pretty blindsided by the
> > previous comments. It'd be worth understanding the end goal of the
> > contribution first.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Marta
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 2:22 PM Congxian Qiu <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > Thanks for bringing this up, Robert.
> > >
> > > I agree we may need to investigate better translation/synchronization
> > tools
> > > again.
> > >
> > > I'll share some experience when translating the documentation or
> > reviewing
> > > the translation.
> > > 1. Translate documentation using the current procedure needs a lot of
> > > resources to keep the translated version fresh, I'm glad that we have
> so
> > > many contributors who want to translate the documentation to Chinese.
> > > 2. The documentation may out of sync between the English version and
> the
> > > translated version, this needs the reviewer to know about Flink and the
> > > English version doc very well(especially when the documentation has
> been
> > > restructured)
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Congxian
> > >
> > >
> > > Jark Wu <[hidden email]> 于2020年6月9日周二下午6:02写道：
> > >
> > > > I agree with Dawid and others' opinions.
> > > >
> > > > We may not have enough resources to maintain more languages.
> > > > Maybe it's time to investigate better translation/synchronization
> tools
> > > > again.
> > > >
> > > > I want to share some background about the current translation
> process.
> > In
> > > > the initial proposal of Chinese translation FLIP-35 [1],
> > > > we have considered Docusaurus/Crowdin as the localization tool, but
> it
> > > > seems that Crowdin doesn't fit well with Jekyll (Liquid codes).
> > > > But it's been a year and a half, maybe it's time to re-investigate
> them
> > > or
> > > > other tools.
> > > >
> > > > Here is the list of how other ASF projects are dealing translation of
> > > what
> > > > I know:
> > > > - Apache Pulsar uses Crowdin:
> > > https://github.com/apache/pulsar-translation
> > > > - Apache Kylin: the similar way of Flink:
> > > > https://github.com/apache/kylin/tree/document/website
> > > > - Apache RocketMQ: a separate repository, synchronize manually and
> > > > periodically: https://github.com/apache/rocketmq/tree/master/docs/cn
> > > >
> > > > Here is the list of localization tool of what I know:
> > > > - Docusaurus: https://docusaurus.io/
> > > > - Crowdin: https://crowdin.com/
> > > > - GitLocalize: https://gitlocalize.com/
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Jark
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 16:24, Marta Paes Moreira <[hidden email]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks for bringing this PR to our attention, Robert!
> > > > >
> > > > > Like Dawid and Xintong, I'm concerned that adding a new language
> will
> > > > make
> > > > > it unbearable to ensure docs synchronization. Best-effort
> maintenance
> > > of
> > > > > non-english docs may also result in a bad documentation experience
> > for
> > > > > users, and this is something that we should be especially careful
> > about
> > > > in
> > > > > locations where Flink adoption might still be in an early phase,
> IMO.
> > > At
> > > > > the same time, I understand that having a japanese translation
> would
> > > > > probably be very helpful for Japanese-speaking users and help with
> > > Flink
> > > > > adoption in Japan.
> > > > >
> > > > > I see this happening for other up-and-coming locations (e.g.
> > > > > Spanish-speaking countries) in the future, so in order to be able
> to
> > > > accept
> > > > > these contributions I'm also of the opinion that we first need an
> > > > efficient
> > > > > synchronization tool. Maybe it would be worth investigating how
> other
> > > ASF
> > > > > projects are dealing with this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Marta
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 11:46 AM Xintong Song <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think Dawid has a good point. With or without another new
> > language,
> > > > > > I'm +1 for trying to have a better tooling/process for
> > synchronizing
> > > > doc
> > > > > > changes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Currently, it is not only hard for people who want to modify the
> > > > English
> > > > > > docs, but also for people who try to update the translated copies
> > > > > > accordingly. I'm currently working on updating the Chinese
> > > translations
> > > > > for
> > > > > > the memory configuration documents, and I found it very hard to
> > > > identify
> > > > > > the parts that need updates. The English docs are reorganized,
> > > contents
> > > > > are
> > > > > > moved across pages, and also small pieces of details are
> modified.
> > It
> > > > is
> > > > > > not always possible for people who work on the English docs to
> > locate
> > > > the
> > > > > > right place in the translations where the updated contents should
> > be
> > > > > > pasted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My two cents on the potential approach. We might label the
> > > translation
> > > > > with
> > > > > > the commit id of the original doc where they are in
> > synchronization,
> > > > and
> > > > > > automatically display a warning on the translation if an
> > out-of-sync
> > > is
> > > > > > detected.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you~
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Xintong Song
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 4:30 PM Dawid Wysakowicz <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't have a well defined opinion on adding new language.
> > > However,
> > > > > one
> > > > > > > thing that I'd like to bring up to the attention on that
> occasion
> > > is
> > > > it
> > > > > > > is already quite cumbersome to update two versions of the docs.
> > > > > > > Especially when we add new sections or change smaller parts of
> an
> > > > > > > existing document. Right now if I add three sections in an
> > English
> > > > > > > version I have three additional places in the Chinese documents
> > > > where I
> > > > > > > need to paste that. With additional language it doubles, making
> > it
> > > 6
> > > > > > > places where I have to manually paste the added parts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'd be way more welcoming for adding a new language if we had a
> > > > better
> > > > > > > tooling/process for synchronizing changes across different
> > > languages.
> > > > > Or
> > > > > > > if we agree the translations are best effort documents and we
> do
> > > not
> > > > > > > update them when changing the English documents.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dawid
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 08/06/2020 09:44, Robert Metzger wrote:
> > > > > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > we've received a pull request on flink-web.git for adding a
> > > > Japanese
> > > > > > > > translation of the Flink website:
> > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/flink-web/pull/346
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Before we accept this PR, I believe we should have a
> discussion
> > > > about
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > *Relevance*: Looking at Google analytics, our users are
> coming
> > > from
> > > > > > China
> > > > > > > > (1.), US (2.), India (3.), Germany (4.), Japan (5.).
> > > > > > > > I'd say that is high enough to consider a Japanese
> translation.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > *Reviewing*: I'm not aware of any committer who speaks
> > Japanese.
> > > > How
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > we review this?
> > > > > > > > The contributor is offering to open follow-up pull requests,
> > > which
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > believe is fine to bootstrap. Ideally we'll be able to
> attract
> > > more
> > > > > > > > contributors over time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In my opinion, if we find one or two reviewers, I would give
> > > this a
> > > > > > try.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > Robert
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>